Da Vinci, Science, and Religion...

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billy.pilgrim
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Re: Da Vinci, Science, and Religion...

Unread post by billy.pilgrim » Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:48 pm

we should immediately destroy all of his works and all historical reference to him. it will be as he never existed.
1/20/21 - the end of an error

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Re: Da Vinci, Science, and Religion...

Unread post by .Oomba. » Thu Apr 02, 2020 12:13 am

billy.pilgrim wrote:
Wed Apr 01, 2020 1:48 pm
we should immediately destroy all of his works and all historical reference to him. it will be as he never existed.
Fine, just as long as you leave Khruangbin the fvck alone.

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Re: Da Vinci, Science, and Religion...

Unread post by .Oomba. » Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:31 am

Ulysses wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:55 am
Da Vinci went even further, hinting that he believed that the earth orbits around the sun, scribbling on one of his many papers, "The sun does not move"... The same truth that got Galileo into so much trouble with the Inquisition a century or so later.
That's a common mistranslation. LDV was actually venting about his deadbeat son
who wouldn't come down out of the attic, get a job, a girl and a life somewhere else.

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Re: Da Vinci, Science, and Religion...

Unread post by .Oomba. » Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:37 am

Ulysses wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 1:30 am
.Oomba. wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 12:31 am
Ulysses wrote:
Thu Apr 02, 2020 1:55 am
Da Vinci went even further, hinting that he believed that the earth orbits around the sun, scribbling on one of his many papers, "The sun does not move"... The same truth that got Galileo into so much trouble with the Inquisition a century or so later.
That's a common mistranslation. LDV was actually venting about his deadbeat son
who wouldn't come down out of the attic, get a job, a girl and a life somewhere else.
:angry-banghead:
Galileo is another story.
He only had daughters,
which didn't sit well
with their fathers.
Or the Inquisition.

True story.

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neoplacebo
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Re: Da Vinci, Science, and Religion...

Unread post by neoplacebo » Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:30 am

Yeah, well, "the church" has always been in the vanguard of suppressing the advancement of human knowledge. Back in the day, priests were just about the only ones who could read and write; they wanted to keep it that way. Or die trying.

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Re: Da Vinci, Science, and Religion...

Unread post by .Oomba. » Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:03 am

Ulysses wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:11 pm
neoplacebo wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:30 am
Yeah, well, "the church" has always been in the vanguard of suppressing the advancement of human knowledge. Back in the day, priests were just about the only ones who could read and write; they wanted to keep it that way. Or die trying.
Religion may be the first artificial construct.
I don't know about that. I tend to believe that people were already practiced liars
by the time somebody else could come along and lie to them about something as
far fetched as some religion is, and have them believe it. Religion of the sort too
often being discussed by people who despise it, to me, reeks of the reactionary.
Unless perhaps you believe that Moses went up that hill looking for even more sins.

Then all bets are off.

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neoplacebo
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Re: Da Vinci, Science, and Religion...

Unread post by neoplacebo » Thu Apr 09, 2020 6:11 am

.Oomba. wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:03 am
Ulysses wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 10:11 pm
neoplacebo wrote:
Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:30 am
Yeah, well, "the church" has always been in the vanguard of suppressing the advancement of human knowledge. Back in the day, priests were just about the only ones who could read and write; they wanted to keep it that way. Or die trying.
Religion may be the first artificial construct.
I don't know about that. I tend to believe that people were already practiced liars
by the time somebody else could come along and lie to them about something as
far fetched as some religion is, and have them believe it. Religion of the sort too
often being discussed by people who despise it, to me, reeks of the reactionary.
Unless perhaps you believe that Moses went up that hill looking for even more sins.

Then all bets are off.
Well, the bizarre beauty of the Christian religion is that there's no need to look for even more sins......the entire edifice is promulgated on the concept of "original sin." You are supposedly born a sinner, so that gives the church a head start right out of the gate.....no need to seek out sin; it's omnipresent and all encompassing. If it weren't, they'd be out of business. And sinners.

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Re: Da Vinci, Science, and Religion...

Unread post by .Oomba. » Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:13 pm

Funny thing about Original Sin.

If we are all so damaged by Eve's original sin because we (via her) defiled God's very creation,
and if are then obligated to atone for her sin by our own suffering and eventual death, a fate
which we ourselves brought onto ourselves (via her) when we could or would have had nothing
but eternal joy had she not made such an existential error in judgment . . . if that is the deal,
then how is it that only God knew that such was the case when she shared that damned apple?

What kind of God would create such a scenario?

And if she did have an idea that she was bringing about the end of blissful creation as she knew it,
and she did it anyway, why would her progeny be any smarter or more reverent or faithful? She
had already sacrificed eternity. What can any of the rest of us do that is worse than that? If you
believe that she damned us all by that one choice, how is it that any of the rest of us are capable
of making decisions that involve eternity? Or maybe more to the point, how is it in the wake of her
(and therefore our) defiling of God's perfect plan and creation, that any of us can ever be sure of
anything again, up to and including the very notion of Original Sin? What qualifies us to make that call?

If by our very nature we are sinners damned to eternal suffering in the absence of God's grace,
how can we trust any decision that we make? How can we ever know that we are right about
anything, including (BTW) the notion of Original Sin? Who's to say that we're right about that?

Maybe the Original Sin was thinking that we were made in God's image in the first place.
It is hard to imagine a scenario more likely to fail than the one described in OT Genesis.

It's almost as if Someone set us up to fail knowing,
of course, that failure was the most likely outcome.
It sucks being one of the creatures blamed for the
destruction of a perfect creation. No wonder we sin.

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Re: Da Vinci, Science, and Religion...

Unread post by .Oomba. » Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:24 am

Ulysses wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:23 pm
.Oomba. wrote:
Thu Apr 09, 2020 5:13 pm
Funny thing about Original Sin.

If we are all so damaged by Eve's original sin because we (via her) defiled God's very creation,
and if are then obligated to atone for her sin by our own suffering and eventual death, a fate
which we ourselves brought onto ourselves (via her) when we could or would have had nothing
but eternal joy had she not made such an existential error in judgment . . . if that is the deal,
then how is it that only God knew that such was the case when she shared that damned apple?

What kind of God would create such a scenario?

And if she did have an idea that she was bringing about the end of blissful creation as she knew it,
and she did it anyway, why would her progeny be any smarter or more reverent or faithful? She
had already sacrificed eternity. What can any of the rest of us do that is worse than that? If you
believe that she damned us all by that one choice, how is it that any of the rest of us are capable
of making decisions that involve eternity? Or maybe more to the point, how is it in the wake of her
(and therefore our) defiling of God's perfect plan and creation, that any of us can ever be sure of
anything again, up to and including the very notion of Original Sin? What qualifies us to make that call?

If by our very nature we are sinners damned to eternal suffering in the absence of God's grace,
how can we trust any decision that we make? How can we ever know that we are right about
anything, including (BTW) the notion of Original Sin? Who's to say that we're right about that?

Maybe the Original Sin was thinking that we were made in God's image in the first place.
It is hard to imagine a scenario more likely to fail than the one described in OT Genesis.

It's almost as if Someone set us up to fail knowing,
of course, that failure was the most likely outcome.
It sucks being one of the creatures blamed for the
destruction of a perfect creation. No wonder we sin.
God sure was finicky about his fruit bowls.
So was my great grandmother.
Now I know where she got it.

She also worked in her home or yard
every day from 6AM until 6PM six days
a week. She actually came to our house
when I was a kid with white gloves in her
purse which she put on after pulling a chair
over to a doorway in the living room. She then
stepped up onto the seat of the chair to run her
gloved finger over the top of the door casing to
make sure that her granddaughter (my mother)
was dusting properly. She had to have been at
least 60 then. She was maybe 5' tall, and never
weighed 100 lbs, but nobody I knew would
ever dream of giving her any crap. She ate
liverwurst or onion with mustard sandwiches
on a single piece of bread folded over. Her
only vice was a half cup of beer whenever
she listened to the NY Yankees on her radio,
and she never missed a Yankee game on her
radio. She lived to be 102, and she kept that
same routine until she was in her late nineties.
She never cursed, but her pet myna bird swore
like a sailor. She would have kicked COVID19 ass.

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Re: Da Vinci, Science, and Religion...

Unread post by .Oomba. » Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:11 am

Ulysses wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 2:55 am
.Oomba. wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:24 am

So was my great grandmother.
Now I know where she got it.

She also worked in her home or yard
every day from 6AM until 6PM six days
a week. She actually came to our house
when I was a kid with white gloves in her
purse which she put on after pulling a chair
over to a doorway in the living room. She then
stepped up onto the seat of the chair to run her
gloved finger over the top of the door casing to
make sure that her granddaughter (my mother)
was dusting properly. She had to have been at
least 60 then. She was maybe 5' tall, and never
weighed 100 lbs, but nobody I knew would
ever dream of giving her any crap. She ate
liverwurst or onion with mustard sandwiches
on a single piece of bread folded over. Her
only vice was a half cup of beer whenever
she listened to the NY Yankees on her radio,
and she never missed a Yankee game on her
radio. She lived to be 102, and she kept that
same routine until she was in her late nineties.
She never cursed, but her pet myna bird swore
like a sailor. She would have kicked COVID19 ass.
That was a trick my last landlady tried, when I was moving out because I had finally bought my own home. She got a white napkin and ran it along the top of a doorway frame. I was a bit incredulous, especially since she was so lackadaisical about maintaining the property (peeling paint on the outside walls, crumbling plumbing, etc...) Clearly she was trying to have me forfeit my cleaning deposit. Bitch. Nobody liked her.

I was at the time busy with my new house (it needed lots of work), but once she had coughed up most of my deposits (can't remember what, if anything, she withheld) I took the opportunity to tell her off over the phone. I told her she should not be allowed to own property. That got her going, LOL.

My grandma? I heard some tales about her. Very hard working and no-nonsense. She died when I was a kid. But I remember when I was still pre-toddler being put in her arms when she came to visit, and what color her blouse was, and the little flower print pattern on it. I told my mom years later and she couldn't believe it, "You were just a baby!". My memory from there on out was all downhill.
And then you met me.
But don't take it so hard.
Everybody hits bottom.

.Oomba.
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Re: Da Vinci, Science, and Religion...

Unread post by .Oomba. » Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:11 am

Ulysses wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:17 am
.Oomba. wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:11 am

And then you met me.
But don't take it so hard.
Everybody hits bottom.
Well, you know, that there bottom land is the best kind for growing.
Especially if you're growing wings.

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Re: Da Vinci, Science, and Religion...

Unread post by .Oomba. » Tue Apr 14, 2020 11:39 pm

Ulysses wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:47 am
.Oomba. wrote:
Mon Apr 13, 2020 2:11 am
Ulysses wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:17 am
.Oomba. wrote:
Fri Apr 10, 2020 3:11 am

And then you met me.
But don't take it so hard.
Everybody hits bottom.
Well, you know, that there bottom land is the best kind for growing.
Especially if you're growing wings.
That would be Buffalo land.
People in East Rochester, NY call it East Rochester just so that
they can put one more town between themselves and Buffalo.

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