Education thread

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Vrede too
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Re: Education thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:07 pm

It's easy to think of the GOP as being this evil and manipulative monolith but as we've seen over and over, a lot of their pols are really, really stupid.
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Education thread

Unread post by O Really » Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:22 pm

Vrede too wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:07 pm
It's easy to think of the GOP as being this evil and manipulative monolith but as we've seen over and over, a lot of their pols are really, really stupid.
It would appear to be so, but before they took office most of these people were educated successful people who were capable of doing something else. A lot of them allegedly went to law school even though they've obviously forgotten anything they might have learned.

I'm thinking it must be something in the air in the Capitol.

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Re: Education thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Tue May 01, 2018 9:32 am

Next week is Teacher Appreciation Week.

:clap: :-||
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Re: Education thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Fri May 04, 2018 1:41 pm

Petition to Congress: No taxpayer money for Christian madrassas.

Military families don’t want vouchers
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Re: Education thread

Unread post by O Really » Fri May 04, 2018 2:05 pm

I thought of something - probably not the only person who thought of it, but I never heard it before. So often you hear somebody complain about having to pay taxes for schools when they have no kids in school. The answer always is - doesn't matter if you have kids or not, support of schools through taxation is a common expense for society. But vouchers are the opposite - if you don't go to a public school, here's your 'refund" of your taxes. If they're giving vouchers for people who take their kids out of school, I want mine for not having a kid in school in the first place.

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Re: Education thread

Unread post by billy.pilgrim » Fri May 04, 2018 2:31 pm

O Really wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:05 pm
I thought of something - probably not the only person who thought of it, but I never heard it before. So often you hear somebody complain about having to pay taxes for schools when they have no kids in school. The answer always is - doesn't matter if you have kids or not, support of schools through taxation is a common expense for society. But vouchers are the opposite - if you don't go to a public school, here's your 'refund" of your taxes. If they're giving vouchers for people who take their kids out of school, I want mine for not having a kid in school in the first place.
it's way more than just a refund of the taxes you pay. In many cases it becomes primary income.

5 or 6 kids earns 25 or 30 thousand dollars and whoopee, if you live in a property valued under $50,000, more for vets, etc, you don't pay a penny in property tax. we fund our schools through property tax.
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Re: Education thread

Unread post by rstrong » Fri May 04, 2018 2:32 pm

O Really wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:05 pm
If they're giving vouchers for people who take their kids out of school, I want mine for not having a kid in school in the first place.
It's not quite the same thing.

I agree with paying school taxes - even without kids in school - for the good of society. If the parents send their kid to a private school instead, then I have no problem giving them a voucher for most of *1 what it would have cost the taxpayers had the kid stayed in the public system. Because the good of society is still served: The kid still got an education.

*1 - Most of rather than all, because unless everyone can afford the private schools, you need to ensure funding for the public education system. Taking kids out (and taxes) out of it removes the efficiency of that funding.

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Re: Education thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Fri May 04, 2018 2:46 pm

rstrong wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:32 pm
... I agree with paying school taxes - even without kids in school - for the good of society. If the parents send their kid to a private school instead, then I have no problem giving them a voucher for most of *1 what it would have cost the taxpayers had the kid stayed in the public system. Because the good of society is still served: The kid still got an education.

Dubious with many of the schools where vouchers are used, often Christian madrassas. Why should I have to pay for that at all?

*1 - Most of rather than all, because unless everyone can afford the private schools, you need to ensure funding for the public education system. Taking kids out (and taxes) out of it removes the efficiency of that funding.
That is a huge caveat, and your "Most" is complicated to assess. Most of school costs are fixed and are not reduced much at all by removing a single student or a handful. Plus, the cherry picking done by private schools ensures that they're teaching the least costly students.
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Education thread

Unread post by rstrong » Fri May 04, 2018 2:52 pm

Vrede too wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:46 pm
Dubious with many of the schools where vouchers are used, often Christian madrassas. Why should I have to pay for that at all?
Again, you were paying the exact same amount for them regardless. And if they're that fanatical, I'd probably welcome the chance to NOT have them around my kids and not have them disrupting science class. And to not have the parents demanding prayer services at my kids' school.

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Re: Education thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Fri May 04, 2018 3:13 pm

rstrong wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:52 pm
Again, you were paying the exact same amount for them regardless. And if they're that fanatical, I'd probably welcome the chance to NOT have them around my kids and not have them disrupting science class. And to not have the parents demanding prayer services at my kids' school.
I doubt that most of the kids are "that fanatical", their parents are, and for the good of future society I want the kids to be challenged by normal kids and teachers.

Paying the exact same amount is not paying for the exact same thing. I happily pay for professional, quality education that society as a whole has created AND that I can influence as much as anyone. I don't want to pay for extremists and incompetents where I have no say over policy.
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Education thread

Unread post by rstrong » Fri May 04, 2018 3:20 pm

Vrede too wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:13 pm
Paying the exact same amount is not paying for the exact same thing. I happily pay for professional, quality education that society as a whole has created AND that I can influence as much as anyone. I don't want to pay for extremists and incompetents where I have no say over policy.
A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism.
- Carl Sagan


If religious schools aren't providing a professional, quality education, that'll suppress any religious propensity toward wealth and power.

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Re: Education thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Fri May 04, 2018 3:29 pm

rstrong wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:20 pm
A celibate clergy is an especially good idea, because it tends to suppress any hereditary propensity toward fanaticism.
- Carl Sagan


If religious schools aren't providing a professional, quality education, that'll suppress any religious propensity toward wealth and power.
You clearly don't know how religion works in America. :P

Some students will do well in any environment, and Dolt .45 proves what happens when enough of the "poorly educated" swing in one direction.
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Education thread

Unread post by rstrong » Fri May 04, 2018 3:46 pm

I think that Trump is more of a last gasp of the evangelicals. Demographics are against them to begin with: The religious are an shrinkingl group. As a side-effect, support for same-sex marriage surpassed 50% of the population several years ago.

Now the evangelicals have hitched their wagon to Donald Trump, and that'll backfire the same way it has for everyone else who's hitched their wagon to Trump. Trump does for shit what King Midas does for gold.

The social media and foreign influence aspects of Trump's election will be harder to counter, but they'll be countered. The Republican Party and Fox News, having pandered to the nutjobs, will learn from having their movement hijacked by a bigger nutjob.

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Re: Education thread

Unread post by billy.pilgrim » Fri May 04, 2018 4:16 pm

rstrong wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:46 pm
I think that Trump is more of a last gasp of the evangelicals. Demographics are against them to begin with: The religious are an shrinkingl group. As a side-effect, support for same-sex marriage surpassed 50% of the population several years ago.

Now the evangelicals have hitched their wagon to Donald Trump, and that'll backfire the same way it has for everyone else who's hitched their wagon to Trump. Trump does for shit what King Midas does for gold.

The social media and foreign influence aspects of Trump's election will be harder to counter, but they'll be countered. The Republican Party and Fox News, having pandered to the nutjobs, will learn from having their movement hijacked by a bigger nutjob.
I love your optimism, but I lean more toward believing that they won. The condition of the courts by the end of trump will make a big difference.
George Carlin said “The owners know the truth. It’s called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.”

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Re: Education thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Fri May 04, 2018 4:39 pm

billy.pilgrim wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 4:16 pm
rstrong wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 3:46 pm
I think that Trump is more of a last gasp of the evangelicals. Demographics are against them to begin with: The religious are an shrinkingl group. As a side-effect, support for same-sex marriage surpassed 50% of the population several years ago.

Now the evangelicals have hitched their wagon to Donald Trump, and that'll backfire the same way it has for everyone else who's hitched their wagon to Trump. Trump does for shit what King Midas does for gold.

The social media and foreign influence aspects of Trump's election will be harder to counter, but they'll be countered. The Republican Party and Fox News, having pandered to the nutjobs, will learn from having their movement hijacked by a bigger nutjob.
I love your optimism, but I lean more toward believing that they won. The condition of the courts by the end of trump will make a big difference.
I agree somewhat with both of you. The death throes of Argentinosaurus must have been awesomely destructive.

What you're saying, rstrong, is one of the reasons that evangelicals are pushing so hard for public funding for their religious education. I say the slackers should row their own goddamned boat.
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Education thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Sat May 05, 2018 9:55 am

O Really wrote:
Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:49 pm
Which brings up an interesting question: why is it that Republicans don't (or maybe no longer) support and are willing to pay for quality education in public schools? ...
2 factors that we didn't mention:
President Ronald Reagan’s Department of Education 1983 false “failing schools” narrative;
Race (can't believe we missed that one).

"A Nation at Risk" and the Re-Segregation of Schools
We were on our way to closing the "achievement gap," and then something happened.


Vrede too wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:46 pm
rstrong wrote:
Fri May 04, 2018 2:32 pm
... I agree with paying school taxes - even without kids in school - for the good of society. If the parents send their kid to a private school instead, then I have no problem giving them a voucher for most of *1 what it would have cost the taxpayers had the kid stayed in the public system. Because the good of society is still served: The kid still got an education....
Dubious with many of the schools where vouchers are used, often Christian madrassas. Why should I have to pay for that at all?
NC Private Schools Receiving Vouchers: A Study of the Curriculum

The League of Women Voters released an analysis today that calls into question how some of North Carolina’s Opportunity Scholarships are being spent. The author’s research indicates that approximately 77% of private schools receiving vouchers are using curricula that do not comply with state standards, leaving many students unprepared for college level coursework or careers in certain fields. The League is asking state officials to review how voucher money is being spent and enforce standards to ensure students receive quality education.

“These schools are receiving public money, and all we ask is that the state hold them accountable to ensure that their students are receiving the constitutionally guaranteed education to which they are entitled,” said League of Women Voters of the Lower Cape Fear (LWV-LCF) board member and report author Bonnie Bechard....

The League of Women Voters study found that a high percentage of schools receiving vouchers use curricula that adhere to a biblical worldview across a wide array of subjects. Experts who have reviewed these curricula have raised many concerns, including that some universities may not accept coursework in classes where it is taught....

“I had no idea that 77% of these vouchers were going to schools teaching literal bible-based content in place of a properly vetted educational curriculum,” said Dr. Snider. “I hope this report has broad readership and gets to the attention of our legislators.”

League of Women Voters leaders say their goal is to promote proper oversight and standards for the use of public funds.

“This is about transparency and accountability,” said League of Women Voters of North Carolina Co-President Janet Hoy. “The state of North Carolina has a responsibility to its citizens to ensure tax dollars are being spent wisely. Students receiving education with public funds must be well-prepared for life and work in the 21st century.”

The white paper is entitled NC Private Schools Receiving Vouchers: A Study of the Curriculum and can be read in full here.

Mass teacher rally to greet (NC) lawmakers (March for Students and Rally for Respect event on May 16)
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Education thread

Unread post by billy.pilgrim » Sat May 05, 2018 10:18 am

How much does NC give these fake sculs for each kid?
George Carlin said “The owners know the truth. It’s called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.”

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Re: Education thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Sat May 05, 2018 10:31 am

billy.pilgrim wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 10:18 am
How much does NC give these fake sculs for each kid?
Pro-voucher website, first I googled, but I don't have any reason to doubt this stat: Average voucher value: $4,046 (Projected 2017–18).
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Education thread

Unread post by billy.pilgrim » Sat May 05, 2018 12:26 pm

Vrede too wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 10:31 am
billy.pilgrim wrote:
Sat May 05, 2018 10:18 am
How much does NC give these fake sculs for each kid?
Pro-voucher website, first I googled, but I don't have any reason to doubt this stat: Average voucher value: $4,046 (Projected 2017–18).

I can't even figure out what we pay anymore. Seems like it was around $5,750 per kid a few years back, but now we have these scholarship programs where the corporate world can fund these religious sculs in a dollar for dollar tax bill discount.

Cool too, that we give out scul scholarships to those in need – at 260% of the poverty level.
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Re: Education thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Wed May 09, 2018 11:29 am

To: jwarren@greenville.k12.sc.us
Subject: Civics

Dear Principal Jason Warren,

Re:
Greenville News: Could cheering at your kid's high school graduation cost you $1,030? Depends whom you ask
https://www.greenvilleonline.com/story/ ... 587661002/

NyDailyNews: High school warns parents against cheering at graduation or pay $1G fine
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nationa ... -1.3979991

You have just told the community, nation and world that you and your Greenville (SC) High School staff are so Civics-ignorant that you're clueless about the 1st Amendment. It's a hoot that even the school district and the cops are throwing you under the bus on this one.

Good job.

Sincerely,
(Vrede too)
Aside: During Xmas break Principal Warren has been spotted on a Florida beach with his shorts up under his arm pits, wearing black socks and sandals, sitting around bitching about everything.
http://www.blueridgedebate.com/viewtopi ... start=1820
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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