Kill List

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bannination
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Re: Kill List

Unread post by bannination » Sat Sep 27, 2014 12:54 pm

Vrede wrote:I'm still confused. Do any articles anywhere not have a cute woman somewhere on the page?

I guess the gutter would be a step up for me.
Not a cute woman in that position with a headline under it about happy endings. :-H

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Re: Kill List

Unread post by bannination » Sat Sep 27, 2014 1:01 pm

O Really wrote:
Vrede wrote:[
I think his point is that drone piloting also cause US military casualties, not that it is worse than some other military jobs. Are you sure that you didn't misunderstand?
I didn't misunderstand that point, but I may not have properly addressed it. I really do think it's outrageous that people in stressful jobs in the military (and elsewhere) don't get proper support, help, and treatment. I also think it's outrageous that there doesn't seem to be much proactive effort to pay attention to symptoms and stave off potential problems before they get severe. But still, if one believes the NIH, the drone drivers appear to have a pretty low rate of problems compared to the "boots on the ground" people:


"Alcohol abuse is the most prevalent problem and one which poses a significant health risk. A study of Army soldiers screened 3 to 4 months after returning from deployment to Iraq showed that 27 percent met criteria for alcohol abuse and were at increased risk for related harmful behaviors (e.g., drinking and driving, using illicit drugs). And although soldiers frequently report alcohol concerns, few are referred to alcohol treatment. Research findings highlight the need to improve screening and access to care for alcohol-related problems among service members returning from combat deployments.

Mental illness among military personnel is also a major concern. In another study of returning soldiers, clinicians identified 20 percent of active and 42 percent of reserve component soldiers as requiring mental health treatment. Drug or alcohol use frequently accompanies mental health problems and was involved in 30 percent of the Army's suicide deaths from 2003 to 2009 and in more than 45 percent of non-fatal suicide attempts from 2005 to 2009."
I'd say the point of the article was just to bring awareness that just because we use drones, doesn't mean there still aren't serious ramifications psychologically for the operators even if they aren't as serious as those on the ground. I'd think that's pretty much obvious to anyone.... but then I think about wingnuts.... maybe not.

What I don't understand is why you would join the service (voluntarily) knowing your job is to kill people, even potentially innocent people if you have a problem with that kind of thing.

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Re: Kill List

Unread post by O Really » Sat Sep 27, 2014 6:56 pm

Well, look - I'm not arguing with the guy's experience, observations, or conclusions. I'm not arguing that the job might not have ill effects not immediately apparent. On the other hand, driving a drone is clearly and without doubt less hazardous than tootling around in a humvee or on foot waiting to get shot at or bombed. Maybe the real problem is in the selection for the drone-driving job, which I would guess is pretty desirable from the list of available military jobs. Heck, it looks like a job that a geezer could do. Give me the controls and tell me where you think ISIS or al Qada or whoever the terrorist du jour is and I'll do it.

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Re: Kill List

Unread post by JTA » Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:16 pm

Vrede wrote:Thanks for the tragic NIH quote, O Really, and I agree with what you say except that we don't know the figures for drone assassins. The pilot only cited data for DUI arrests and a court martial, not for all alcohol/drug abuse, in his personal sample. And, I'm sure that the suicide rate for combat troops, as bad as it is, isn't greater than 2% like he says was the case in his unit. Plus, he never said that drone pilots are worse off than combat troops, just that it's bad for them, too.
bannination wrote:What I don't understand is why you would join the service (voluntarily) knowing your job is to kill people, even potentially innocent people if you have a problem with that kind of thing.
I've heard that the military tries to exclude people that want to kill. They prefer ones that don't but can be trained to do so when ordered. As for why folks join, there are lots of reasons. How wise were your choices when you were 18 and did you have as few options as many do in our "poverty draft"?
Most of us in my group of friends were all pretty much working class except for maybe a few, and most ended up joining the military. Out of all that joined only one really ended up having to go to Afghanistan. I guess most maybe got assigned better roles, not sure. I just remember one one my friends always joking about sitting on a ship somewhere in a low key area waiting for enemies that will never come.
You aren't doing it wrong if no one knows what you are doing.

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Re: Kill List

Unread post by O Really » Sat Sep 27, 2014 7:46 pm

Vrede wrote:T. As for why folks join, there are lots of reasons. How wise were your choices when you were 18 and did you have as few options as many do in our "poverty draft"?
Why is taking advantage of an opportunity to maybe get out of poverty a "poverty draft"? Sure, if you have better opportunities, you'll take them. But let's say you don't, and there is no military - what are your opportunities now?

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Re: Kill List

Unread post by O Really » Sat Sep 27, 2014 8:31 pm

Not that you're wrong, m'friend, but you're mixing theory and philosophy with practicality. Of course there are better ways to create opportunity. And of course those with the fewest alternatives choose the military more than those with more alternatives. That doesn't make it inherently a bad thing that today I have an opportunity in the military that is better than my other alternatives. That today, I can agree to accept the risk of being (maybe) a warrior, and in exchange maybe make a better life for myself.

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Re: Kill List

Unread post by O Really » Sun Sep 28, 2014 11:34 am

Vrede wrote:"poverty draft" was IMO just an accurate description of the conditions we have created. You made it into some sort of "bad thing" slam on the folks that go for it. The only reason I brought it up at all is because banni doesn't get why anyone besides psychopaths enlists. I feel weird debating you after I took a less pacifist position. :D

You asked, "But let's say you don't, and there is no military - what are your opportunities now?" If there aren't soldier jobs (your condition) then the money is necessarily being spent on something that creates even more jobs. That isn't philosophy, just subtraction and addition.
I don't see the military as a particularly good job creator, but it is a good opportunity provider. It is one of the few remaining places where a person with a HS or GED education and no marketable skills can get a relatively secure job where they can avoid going into debt or living in poverty. (Yes, I know, the military doesn't pay very well and lots of military people are eligible for SNAP, etc.) Back in the day, such a person could get a factory job, or go into a trade, or even "pump gas" ( a job that doesn't exist outside of NJ anymore). Of course, lots of military jobs don't give you any marketable civilian skills, but you could either stay in, or in any case if you have all your body parts you're better off than you would have been on the street.

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Re: Kill List

Unread post by O Really » Mon Sep 29, 2014 9:58 am

Vrede wrote:I Imagine what we could do if some of that money was going to grade schools, Vo-Techs, community colleges and CCC-like programs. It's not like we couldn't offer all those bennies to people without demanding that they kill on command, if we wanted to.
I have long opposed wasting trillions pursuing unwinnable and unnecessary wars. But I've seen no indication whatsoever that if that money was not spent on wars that it would instead be spent on education, training, work programs, business development, or healthcare.

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Re: Kill List

Unread post by bannination » Mon Sep 29, 2014 10:16 am

O Really wrote:
Vrede wrote:I Imagine what we could do if some of that money was going to grade schools, Vo-Techs, community colleges and CCC-like programs. It's not like we couldn't offer all those bennies to people without demanding that they kill on command, if we wanted to.
I have long opposed wasting trillions pursuing unwinnable and unnecessary wars. But I've seen no indication whatsoever that if that money was not spent on wars that it would instead be spent on education, training, work programs, business development, or healthcare.
Unfortunately. :cry:

Could you imagine if it was though.... wow..... what an awesome nation it could have (possibly) been.

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Re: Kill List

Unread post by O Really » Mon Sep 29, 2014 11:54 am

In my case, I'm not "lauding" - I'm looking at it from the standpoint of the individual, not the organization. Without doubt, the US would be better off if a less war-mongering strategy had been taken.

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Re: Kill List

Unread post by O Really » Sun Oct 19, 2014 9:33 am

No doubt drone strikes fuel terrorism.
She would perhaps prefer jets? Missles? Tanks? It's not the tools, it's the people and the fatally flawed strategies that keep thinking the US can somehow overturn centuries of history. I'll bet it's the same ones that think they can "cure" gay.

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Re: Kill List

Unread post by O Really » Fri Oct 24, 2014 5:59 pm


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Re: Kill List

Unread post by rstrong » Wed Jan 28, 2015 5:43 pm

A good friend will bail you out of jail, but your best friend will be sitting next to you yelling "THAT WAS AWESOME!"

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Re: Kill List

Unread post by Vrede too » Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:25 pm

There’s a Drone Flying Over My House. Can I Shoot It?
There's a drone buzzing over your backyard. Your immediate response is to....

Wave as it flies by - 9%

Grab your shotgun and blast it - 41%

File a restraining order - 5%

Call the cops - 16%

Launch your own counterattack drone - 29%
:thumbup: :clap:

I'm thinking a wristrocket rather than a gun, though.
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Kill List

Unread post by Boatrocker » Mon Aug 03, 2015 2:02 pm

Vrede too wrote:There’s a Drone Flying Over My House. Can I Shoot It?
There's a drone buzzing over your backyard. Your immediate response is to....

Wave as it flies by - 9%

Grab your shotgun and blast it - 41%

File a restraining order - 5%

Call the cops - 16%

Launch your own counterattack drone - 29%
:thumbup: :clap:

I'm thinking a wristrocket rather than a gun, though.
Living inside city limits, I don't like the idea of just shooting in the air like some Palestinian numbnuts. Can civilians buy a bean bag gun?
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." — H. L. Mencken, July 26, 1920, in The Baltimore Evening Sun

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Re: Kill List

Unread post by O Really » Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:36 pm

Dunno about the bean bag gun - or how accurate it would be anyway. But I read a good analysis of the various drone scenarios, and under a lot of circumstances, there's not much legally to do about them. There are minimum heights, etc., but they're entitled to airspace. I'll see if I can find it again and post.

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Re: Kill List

Unread post by Boatrocker » Mon Aug 03, 2015 5:06 pm

I was thinking of the drone that drops down within a few feet of your roof or deck or patio. If laws need to be updated- which may be hard if the drone mfr's have a lobby- they should be. In the meantime, I have no problem offering AAA to one that drops down over my property. Hasn't happened, yet, and probly not likely to, at least in the short run.
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." — H. L. Mencken, July 26, 1920, in The Baltimore Evening Sun

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Re: Kill List

Unread post by Vrede too » Wed Sep 23, 2015 5:36 pm

Ad for drone pilots to refuse runs in Air Force Times
By Courage to Resist. September 23, 2015

On Monday, September 14, the Air Force Times, a weekly newspaper with a circulation of over 65,000 subscribers who include active, reserve and retired U.S. Air Force, Air National Guard and general military personnel and their families, published the advertisement below, carrying a message from 54 veterans urging US drone pilots to refuse to follow orders to fly surveillance and attack missions, citing international law. Courage to Resist is proud to have contributed to this historic effort, which was organized by Iraq Veterans Against the War, KnowDrones.com, Veterans for Peace, and World Can’t Wait.

Image
:---P
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Kill List

Unread post by Vrede too » Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:36 pm

Drone Pilots Are Quitting In Record Numbers
A combination of lower-class status in the military, overwork, and psychological trauma appears to be taking a mental toll on drone pilots.


Obama's drone war a 'recruitment tool' for Isis, say US air force whistleblowers
Four former service members – including three sensor operators – issue plea to rethink current airstrike strategy that has ‘fueled feelings of hatred’ toward US


Image
Dear President Obama, Secretary Carter and Director Brennan:

We are former Air Force service members. We joined the Air Force to protect American lives 
and to protect our Constitution. We came to the realization that the innocent civilians we were killing 
only fueled the feelings of hatred that ignited terrorism and groups like ISIS, while also serving as a 
fundamental recruitment tool similar to Guantanamo Bay. This administration and its predecessors 
have built a drone program that is one of the most devastating driving forces for terrorism and 
destabilization around the world. 
 
When the guilt of our roles in facilitating this systematic loss of innocent life became too much,
all of us succumbed to PTSD. We were cut loose by the same government we gave so much to ­­ sent 
out in the world without adequate medical care, reliable public health services, or necessary benefits. 
Some of us are now homeless. Others of us barely make it. 
 
We witnessed gross waste, mismanagement, abuses of power, and our country’s leaders lying 
publicly about the effectiveness of the drone program. We cannot sit silently by and witness tragedies 
like the attacks in Paris, knowing the devastating effects the drone program has overseas and at home. 
Such silence would violate the very oaths we took to support and defend the Constitution. 
 
We request that you consider our perspective, though perhaps that request is in vain given the 
unprecedented prosecution of truth­tellers who came before us like Chelsea Manning, Julian Assange, 
and Edward Snowden. For the sake of this country, we hope it is otherwise.


A different movie:

It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Kill List

Unread post by O Really » Tue Nov 24, 2015 9:09 pm

So if you ride in your weapon carrying aircraft, it's OK, but if you pilot it remotely it's not. Carry that to its logical conclusion and the only available means of killing the enemy is hand-to-hand.

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