Middle East

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Vrede too
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Re: Middle East

Unread post by Vrede too » Mon May 01, 2017 9:26 am

The petition to Congress reads:

"The United States should not sell fighter jets, missiles or other military equipment to countries engaged in known human rights abuses. Block Rex Tillerson’s arms sale to Bahrain and pass legislation to prohibit arms sales to countries with a record of abusing human rights moving forward."
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Middle East

Unread post by O Really » Mon May 01, 2017 10:24 am

Ummm, the US is rapidly developing a record of "known human rights abuses."
Anyway, I agree with the principle, but doubt that Tillerson cares about any opinions that aren't Trump's-of-the-day.

On a related note, though, I wish there was a more accurate term for "human rights." There really aren't any human rights outside of those bestowed and protected by the government or controlling power where they live. There is nothing that inherently gives the Somalian, for example, a "right" to anything. Not that I oppose fighting for more humane treatment of people, but it's a "rights" matter only in the context of the US and similar governments and their laws. Same principle as in the US. If there is no federal or state law that protects a given group from discrimination, then those people don't have a right to that protection until or unless the law is changed.

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Re: Middle East

Unread post by Vrede too » Mon May 01, 2017 12:34 pm

O Really wrote:Ummm, the US is rapidly developing a record of "known human rights abuses."

"developing"? ;) Responsible nations should not sell us arms.

Anyway, I agree with the principle, but doubt that Tillerson cares about any opinions that aren't Trump's-of-the-day.

True. Also, whatever benefits the US merchants of death, though that's not limited to Tillerson and Trump by any means.

On a related note, though, I wish there was a more accurate term for "human rights." There really aren't any human rights outside of those bestowed and protected by the government or controlling power where they live. There is nothing that inherently gives the Somalian, for example, a "right" to anything. Not that I oppose fighting for more humane treatment of people, but it's a "rights" matter only in the context of the US and similar governments and their laws. Same principle as in the US. If there is no federal or state law that protects a given group from discrimination, then those people don't have a right to that protection until or unless the law is changed.

Human rights are defined by international treaty and by US law as it relates to global responsibilities. One example is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but there are others that do, may or should apply.
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Re: Middle East

Unread post by O Really » Mon May 01, 2017 4:53 pm

Vrede too wrote: Human rights are defined by international treaty and by US law as it relates to global responsibilities. One example is the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, but there are others that do, may or should apply.
[/quote]
"The Declaration consists of thirty articles which, although not legally binding...
I'm not disagreeing with the principle. I'm just saying if it's not guranteed and enforced by the country in which a person lives, it's not their "right." Want to say we shouldn't sell arms products to countries who don't adopt and enforce the UN Declaration? OK, that's good.

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Re: Middle East

Unread post by Vrede too » Mon May 01, 2017 5:54 pm

Maybe I'm confused but I think you might be splitting semantic hairs. If some rights aren't guaranteed and enforced in some counties in, say, Alabama, that doesn't mean they don't exist. We as an arms seller can say that they are human rights even if Bahrain or some other arms buyer disagrees.

Others:

International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, Bahrain and the US are parties to the covenant.
International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights, Bahrain is a party to the covenant. The US signed but never ratified. :roll:
Other international human rights treaties, I didn't look up the parties.

The reasons for shunning Bahrain in particular are described at the petition link.

Personally, I don't want us selling arms to anyone, especially in the Middle East. So, I'm fine with any rationale for not doing so.
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Re: Middle East

Unread post by O Really » Mon May 01, 2017 7:16 pm

Vrede too wrote:Maybe I'm confused but I think you might be splitting semantic hairs. If some rights aren't guaranteed and enforced in some counties in, say, Alabama, that doesn't mean they don't exist. We as an arms seller can say that they are human rights even if Bahrain or some other arms buyer disagrees.

.
I may be splitting hairs - that's what lawyers do ;)
But I think there is a difference that matters. If there's a federal law that applies in Alabama, but some places don't enforce it, then that's a violation of their rights. Happens all the time. But if there is no law applicable to them, then the right does not exist. Just because it's defined by some other country or collection of countries doesn't make it law in Berzerkistan.

But yeah, I'd think MIddle Eastern countries could manage to shoot each other up sufficiently with Russian and Chinese weapons without having to use US weaponry.

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Re: Middle East

Unread post by Vrede too » Mon May 01, 2017 7:32 pm

There's international law that applies in Bahrain since it signed the treaties. Even though Bahrain doesn't adhere to or enforce it, the rights exist.

It's unfounded speculation that there would be just as many weapons in the Middle East if the largest supplier shunned it. For one thing, a lot of the arms are military aid, not market price sales.
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Re: Middle East

Unread post by Vrede too » Wed May 10, 2017 8:45 am

It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Middle East

Unread post by Vrede too » Sat May 13, 2017 1:00 pm

It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Middle East

Unread post by Vrede too » Sun May 14, 2017 7:13 pm

Petition to be delivered to The United States House of Representatives and The United States Senate

Oppose any arms deal with the UAE until the UAE agrees to a ceasefire at Hodeida to protect Yemen from famine.
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Re: Middle East

Unread post by k9nanny » Mon May 15, 2017 12:08 am

O Really wrote:
But yeah, I'd think MIddle Eastern countries could manage to shoot each other up sufficiently with Russian and Chinese weapons without having to use US weaponry.
They managed sufficient carnage for three or four thousand years with weapons of their own. I suspect they'll continue without our weapons.

We give Israel aid to protect themselves from the Arabs. Now we're going to give the Saudis aid.
This is bat crap crazy on so many levels. If oil were a factor, I have no doubt we'd send money to South andNorth Korea
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Re: Middle East

Unread post by rstrong » Mon May 15, 2017 12:49 am

k9nanny wrote:This is bat crap crazy on so many levels. If oil were a factor, I have no doubt we'd send money to South andNorth Korea
You DO send aid to North Korea; just not military aid.

The North Korean government explains the arrival of food with American markings as "war reparations." Proof that North Korea - specifically god-emperor Kim Il-sung, single-handily - won the war.

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Re: Middle East

Unread post by Vrede too » Thu May 18, 2017 8:35 am

Petition to be delivered to The United States Senate

Cosponsor SJRes40 to require Saudi Arabia & UAE to allow food into Yemen to avert famine.
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Middle East

Unread post by Vrede too » Sat May 20, 2017 10:01 am

It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.


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Re: Middle East

Unread post by Vrede too » Tue Jun 06, 2017 3:32 pm

The $110 billion arms deal to Saudi Arabia is fake news

Did Trump’s Trip Abroad Add Thousands of Jobs? Maybe in Saudi Arabia

Looks like $110B Saudi arms deal is bullshit

... As a policy matter, I'm against selling Saudi Arabia, or any nation in the Middle East, a single bullet. Or any non-allied nation. But strictly on business merits, letters of intent are not deals. They are usually the beginning of negotiations and set the parameters and terms of the discussion, not the final deal.

So, once again, America's greatest dealmaker went overseas, touched a weird looking globe, and came back with virtually nothing. Except a bling bling necklace for himself.
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Re: Middle East

Unread post by Vrede too » Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:53 pm

Iran 1953 Covert History Quietly Released

I'm unlikely to live long enough to see the internal truths about our current wars released.
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Middle East

Unread post by Vrede too » Sun Jun 18, 2017 5:43 am

US ambassador to Qatar steps down after posting critical tweets about Donald Trump

... The US agreed to sell Qatar $12bn (£9.4bn)-worth of fighter jets just days after President Trump accused the country of being a sponsor of terrorism....
So, either they aren't terrorists or Dolt .45 is arming terrorists. The sheer incompetent chaos of this administration is impressive.
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Re: Middle East

Unread post by billy.pilgrim » Sun Jun 18, 2017 9:38 am

Vrede too wrote:
Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:53 pm
Iran 1953 Covert History Quietly Released

I'm unlikely to live long enough to see the internal truths about our current wars released.

"“The original CIA cables relating to the implementation of the covert action TPAJAX no longer exist. The original TPAJAX operational cables appear to have been destroyed as part of an office purge undertaken in 1961 or 1962, in anticipation of Near East (NE) Division’s move to the Central Intelligence Agency’s new headquarters.”


None of us will live long enough to repair the damage we did to that country and the entire ME. Can you imagine what a difference it would have made if we had supported the strong secular democracy rather than overthrow it and throw our support behind a brutal dictator
George Carlin said “The owners know the truth. It’s called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.”

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Re: Middle East

Unread post by Vrede too » Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:12 pm

In Yemen’s secret prisons, UAE tortures and US interrogates

The Potential Legal Implications for the U.S. in the AP’s Disturbing UAE Torture Scoop

Our direct torture may or may not have ended with the election of Obama, but our decades of torture by proxy never ended.
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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