Nuclear weapons

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Vrede too
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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by Vrede too » Tue Jan 24, 2017 7:05 am

It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Vrede too
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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by Vrede too » Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:43 am

It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by Boatrocker » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:08 am

Russian Spy Ship Spotted 30 Miles Off Connecticut Coast Near Naval Base

On one hand, it seems as though it's something to be expected, now that Putin feels emboldened to do as he likes, without worry that his bitch, Putina, will offer complaint.
On the other hand, I have to fault the media for the sensationalism- this was just daily life back in the 60s & 70s for the submarine navy. Every transit in or out, from New London, Norfolk, Charleston, King's Bay, San Diego, Bremerton, Pearl Harbor, Rota or Holly Loch was accompanied by soviet AGIs, tracking and sometimes annoying us. Cutting across our bows, coming close alongside. Our captain was known to give them an emphatic finger and refuse to change course. High seas chicken.
Same ol' shit. Say what you will about how "baddass" the trumphole is- the russkies seldom pulled this shit since the demise of the old soviet cesspit. It's only since idiot Amurka elected the weasel-headed fuck trumpet that they feel it's okay to do it again.
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." — H. L. Mencken, July 26, 1920, in The Baltimore Evening Sun

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O Really
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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by O Really » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:23 am

Funny. The intelligence group I was with got Christmas greetings one year from "Ivan" who was in an ummmmm, "fishing boat" with a bunch of antennas off shore a little distance. Everybody watches everybody else. Why wouldn't you?

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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by Boatrocker » Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:37 am

O Really wrote:Funny. The intelligence group I was with got Christmas greetings one year from "Ivan" who was in an ummmmm, "fishing boat" with a bunch of antennas off shore a little distance. Everybody watches everybody else. Why wouldn't you?
Precisely. We have a battle group in the Black Sea- it just got buzzed by Russian warplanes.
"On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron." — H. L. Mencken, July 26, 1920, in The Baltimore Evening Sun

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Vrede too
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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by Vrede too » Thu Mar 02, 2017 5:43 pm

Pentagon Panel Urges Trump Team to Expand Nuclear Options
Report suggests ‘tailored nuclear option for limited use’


:roll: :cussing:

Trump wants to make sure U.S. nuclear arsenal at 'top of the pack'

There's no such thing, moron. After the first couple of hundred it's all extremely costly redundancy.
Open Letter to Presidents(*) Trump and Putin

This may be the most dangerous time in human history....

We, the undersigned, implore you to commence negotiations to reduce the dangers of a nuclear war, by mistake or malice, and immediately commit your respective governments to the realizable objective of a nuclear weapons-free world. It would be the greatest possible gift to the whole of humanity and to all future generations, as well as of enduring benefit to the national and human security of Russia and the United States.
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by JTA » Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:38 am

Image
You aren't doing it wrong if no one knows what you are doing.

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O Really
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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by O Really » Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:23 am

So I thought - naw, not even Trump. Must be an altered quote, out of context...something. Nope. Real, direct quote, and in context. We're doomed.

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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by rstrong » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:14 pm

Don't worry. Rick Perry is in charge of the safety of the nukes.

(Have you seen what happens when one of those things rolls off a desk?)

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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by JTA » Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:57 pm

O Really wrote:So I thought - naw, not even Trump. Must be an altered quote, out of context...something. Nope. Real, direct quote, and in context. We're doomed.
Had a Trump-Fanboy friend explain it to me that that's just how people from NYC talk, it's not that Trump is an idiot.

Having been to NYC a bunch of times, I believe that to be false.
You aren't doing it wrong if no one knows what you are doing.

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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by O Really » Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:26 pm

JTA wrote:
Had a Trump-Fanboy friend explain it to me that that's just how people from NYC talk, it's not that Trump is an idiot.

.
:lol:
Cab drivers, maybe. At least the lesser educated ones.

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Vrede too
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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by Vrede too » Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:53 pm

United Nations conference to negotiate a legally binding instrument to prohibit nuclear weapons, leading towards their total elimination
New York, 27-31 March and 15 June - 7 July 2017

Draft treaty on the prohibition of nuclear weapons
Email your UN mission in New York to ask them to adopt the treaty on Friday.

Haley doesn't care and it'll be awhile before the big powers disarm, but this is a huge step. Notice that it's getting little media coverage.
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by rstrong » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:22 am

Vrede too wrote:
Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:53 pm
Notice that it's getting little media coverage.
It gets little media coverage because it means exactly nothing. There's an endless stream of such proposals at the UN. Some even become treaties, ratified by a few countries. Like "Moon Treaty", ratified by 17 countries, but still absolutely irrelevant because no space-faring country is in the list. The less likely ones get picked up by conspiritard websites 30 years after everyone else forgets them, with claims that "THIS IS WHAT THE UN IS ABOUT TO DICTATE TO AMERICA!!!!!!!."

Still, the US and other nuclear powers *HAVE* signed a treaty to get rid of their nuclear weapons. The Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT). The US ratified it almost 50 years ago. I'm sure it'll honor its obligations Any Day Now.

Sarcasm aside, the world just got a lesson in nuclear disarmament. Ukraine gave up its nukes in exchange for the US, Britain and Russia guaranteeing its borders. It hasn't gone well; the guarantee meant nothing. The US won't contribute more than advice and non-weapon goods because Russia has nukes. Nukes are what counts.

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Vrede too
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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by Vrede too » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:47 am

So, you support North Korea?

The vagueness and ineffectiveness of the NPT is the reason for this treaty. Do you really presume that the participants (or I) haven't heard of it?

132 countries is different from "17 countries" by my math, especially when several of them host US nuclear weapons, others participate in the nuclear cycle, and lots host foreign ships with nukes onboard. But, maybe you could organize a Twitter campaign to make it meaningful.
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by rstrong » Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:57 am

Vrede too wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:47 am
132 countries is different from "17 countries" by my math,
190, for the NTP. And yet despite its mandate to get rid of nuclear weapons, none are doing so.

Well. Except for Ukraine.

Oops.

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Vrede too
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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by Vrede too » Tue Jul 04, 2017 1:00 am

Belarus, Kazakhstan, South Africa, no oops.

Did you even look at the new treaty, how it differs from the NPT, its rationale, its provisions, its penalties and its plan for future action, or are you just talking out of your hat?
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by rstrong » Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:03 am

I read the draft. What I wrote still applies. There's no reason to believe that the existing nuclear powers will sign it.

Even if it's ratified by the required 50 states and enters into force, it still only applies to those 50 states. If the nuclear power ignore it, they're not bound by it. There are no penalties for ignoring it. It'll apply only to non-nuclear nations in the same way that the Moon Treaty applies only to a few non-spacefaring nations.

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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by Vrede too » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:25 am

With your Ukraine example, do you really think that Russia would have ever allowed it to become independent if it retained its nukes? Seems unlikely to me.
rstrong wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:03 am
I read the draft. What I wrote still applies. There's no reason to believe that the existing nuclear powers will sign it.

I never said that they would, at least not immediately, just that this is a "step".

Even if it's ratified by the required 50 states and enters into force, it still only applies to those 50 states. If the nuclear power ignore it, they're not bound by it. There are no penalties for ignoring it. It'll apply only to non-nuclear nations in the same way that the Moon Treaty applies only to a few non-spacefaring nations.
It's a broad based mechanism to increase pressure on the wannabe genocidal maniacs. Is it your defeatist position that we will never, ever get rid of nuclear weapons and thus no one should try?

I made a mistake earlier, should have double checked first. Only Holland hosts US nuclear weapons among the treaty participants. Of course, the US is the only nation that puts nukes in other countries, even Turkey :crazy: .That said, the other signatories that abet nuclear weapons in one way or another will now be subject to pressure from their people to interpret the treaty strictly and act accordingly.
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by rstrong » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:49 am

Vrede too wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:25 am
With your Ukraine example, do you really think that Russia would have ever allowed it to become independent if it retained its nukes? Seems unlikely to me.
Ukraine got independence in 1991. It was even recognized as an independent state by Russia in 1991. Ukraine agreed to give up its nukes in 1994.
Vrede too wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:25 am
It's a broad based mechanism to increase pressure on the wannabe genocidal maniacs. Is it your defeatist position that we will never, ever get rid of nuclear weapons and thus no one should try?
There's defeatist, and there's having a sense of reality. The US, Russia, China and Israel will never give up their nukes. And that's WITH the US, Russia, China having signed a treaty to do so almost 50 years ago.

And you can bet that there's a few non-nuclear countries with plans on the shelf to build nukes on a moment's notice should they be threatened.

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Re: Nuclear weapons

Unread post by O Really » Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:53 am

Vrede too wrote:
Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:25 am
It's a broad based mechanism to increase pressure on the wannabe genocidal maniacs. Is it your defeatist position that we will never, ever get rid of nuclear weapons and thus no one should try?

[/quote]

Nobody is going to voluntarily and arbitrarily give up their weapons as long as they fear what they think is a legitimate threat. That's true whether the weapon is a gun or a nuke. As difficult and impossible-seeming as it is, we'd be better off focusing on reducing and addressing the causes of threats than to quibble over how many if any nukes a country has. I have no defense (or sympathy) for Kim Jong-un, but understanding his motivation is easy: he thinks the world (and the US in particular) is out to get him. They are. He's a living example of the old comment, "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't really out to get you...and if they really are out to get you, paranoid is a survival skill."

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