Gun Legislation

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Vrede too
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by Vrede too » Mon Dec 10, 2018 7:21 pm

So many wingnuts, so little time.

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Leo Lyons
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by Leo Lyons » Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:06 pm

neoplacebo wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:53 pm
I would prefer to enter the place with a Saga AA-12 automatic shotgun but I figure that'd be presumptuous.
No shittin' ?

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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by neoplacebo » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:48 pm

Leo Lyons wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 8:06 pm
neoplacebo wrote:
Sat Dec 08, 2018 7:53 pm
I would prefer to enter the place with a Saga AA-12 automatic shotgun but I figure that'd be presumptuous.
No shittin' ?
Yeah, I was in a tentative deal with Jared Kushner to buy a massive amount of those AA-12 firearms and then persuade the NRA to endorse these entirely reasonable devices as deterrents to rampant crime and just generally anything the holder of the weapon doesn't like. He was all for it but he's got so many other stupid ass deals going on that this one just fell under the rails.

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Vrede too
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by Vrede too » Thu Dec 13, 2018 1:43 pm

Gun deaths in US rise to highest level in 20 years, data shows

Forty thousand people were killed in shootings last year amid a growing number of suicides involving firearms, CDC reveals

... The CDC’s Wonder database shows that in 2017, 39,773 people in the US lost their lives at the point of a gun, marking the onward march of firearm fatalities in a country renowned for its lax approach to gun controls. When adjusted for age fluctuations, that represents a total of 12 deaths per 100,000 people – up from 10.1 in 2010 and the highest rate since 1996.

What that bare statistic represents in terms of human tragedy is most starkly reflected when set alongside those of other countries. According to a recent study from the Jama Network, it compares with rates of 0.2 deaths per 100,000 people in Japan, 0.3 in the UK, 0.9 in Germany and 2.1 in Canada.

Jama found that just six countries in the world are responsible for more than half of all 250,000 gun deaths a year around the globe. The US is among those six, together with Brazil, Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela and Guatemala....

Research by the Educational Fund to Stop Gun Violence underlines that the tragedy of gun violence and suicides is not spread randomly across the country, but is concentrated precisely in those places where gun ownership is most prevalent and gun laws at their loosest. When the fund analysed the new CDC statistics, it discovered the highest rates of gun suicides occurred in three states which also have the greatest gun ownership – Montana (19.4 gun suicides per 100,000), Wyoming (16.6) and Alaska (16.0).

Alaska has the highest rate of gun ownership in the US, with 61.7% distribution. Wyoming (53.8%) and Montana (52.3%) are also at the top of the league table.

The statistics speak to a brutally simple truth. Studies have shownd that suicide attempts often take place in a moment of hopelessness that can last barely minutes – which means that easy access to a firearm can in itself exponentially increase the risk of self-harm.

“People often think with suicides involving firearms that there’s nothing we can do to prevent this,” said the Education Fund’s policy analyst, Dakota Jablon. “But looking at these numbers it’s clear that simply having a lot of guns around increases the danger.”

Jablon pointed out that access to a gun in the home increases the odds of suicide more than threefold.

The CDC data shows that gun homicides account for a smaller proportion of the total of gun deaths, but here too there has been a worrying uptick in the past few years. The CDC figures show that 14,542 people were killed in firearm homicides in 2017, a rate of 4.6 per 100,000 that held steady on the previous year.

That was up from an equivalent rate of 4.2 in 2015 and 3.6 in 2010.
So many wingnuts, so little time.

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Vrede too
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by Vrede too » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:40 am

December 14 was six years since the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School. Nothing changed except that we are now more used to school and other mass shootings. :(
So many wingnuts, so little time.

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O Really
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by O Really » Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:14 pm

Meanwhile... Highest rate of gunshot deaths in 40 years.

"Nearly 40,000 people in the United States died from a gunshot wound in 2017. According to the CDC data, 14,542 were murders and 23,854 were ruled a suicide.

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Leo Lyons
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by Leo Lyons » Sun Dec 16, 2018 7:54 pm

Vrede too wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:40 am
December 14 was six years since the massacre at Sandy Hook Elementary School. Nothing changed except that we are now more used to school and other mass shootings. :(
What change would have made a difference? The U.S. is not the only country plagued with gun violence. A gun must have a handler to be lethal; it does nothing on it's own; therefore, even if a total ban on guns were implemented, the former gun handlers would find other weapons if they are bent on killing.
O Really wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 1:14 pm
Meanwhile... Highest rate of gunshot deaths in 40 years.
"Nearly 40,000 people in the United States died from a gunshot wound in 2017. According to the CDC data, 14,542 were murders and 23,854 were ruled a suicide.
I didn't look up figures, but I believe we've experienced the highest number of drug-related deaths in years too...and drugs ARE ILLEGAL, so let's take a look: According to liberal-minds, the "war on drugs" is a failure, so drugs should be legalized, or <ahem> "controlled". Guns are legal, but should be controlled. If drug use can't be controlled, why would anyone think that guns can?

You may say proper and more extensive training should be implemented; OK, I'll agree with that, BUT not everyone who receives gun training is of a sound mind; this includes LEO's. Someone, somewhere, is going to get pissed off over a woman, a car, money, a debt, drug deals gone wrong, etc., etc., etc. You know where this is going?

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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by O Really » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:30 pm

Well, actually, a lot of countries have gun violence issues, but once you drop the third-world, banana republic type places, I'm pretty sure statistics show the US to have by far the worst problem of the "civilized" countries. Anyway, the argument you're using, Leo, only addresses one chunk of the problem. Crime isn't the only issue, and even if it were, a lot of crime is opportunist. Bottom line, we can accept it or try to do something about it. I'd prefer to try and partially fail than not to bother to try.

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GoCubsGo
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by GoCubsGo » Sun Dec 16, 2018 8:44 pm

Americans are 10 times more likely to be killed by guns than people in other developed countries, a new study finds.

If Guns Made Us Safer, America Would Be The Safest Country In The World.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/how-u-s-gu ... countries/

Image


Image


Yeah, I guess Americans are just more homicidal and suicidal by nature. :cry:
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If Guns Made Us Safer, America Would Be The Safest Country In The World.

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Leo Lyons
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by Leo Lyons » Sun Dec 16, 2018 9:27 pm

Good comments and statistics; but it's funny (strange, not humorous) that liberals want their drugs and conservatives want their guns;
one is just as deadly as the other.

Overdoses can be compared with gun suicide; gun deaths by robberies and murder can be aligned with drug deals/habits.
It's a vicious cycle that got it's head start long ago; it's now a high-speed runaway train that can't be stopped.

I agree with "Yeah, I guess Americans humans are just more homicidal and suicidal by nature."

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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by Vrede too » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:15 pm

Someone must be drunk or huffing the gun oil.

Drug use is not a “liberal” thing, though utterly failed prohibition is certainly a con thing.
Drugs are rarely used as a tool to kill others, and no one has wiped out an elementary school or country music show with drugs.
Drugs don’t kill people in “deals”. That’s caused by the the black marketplace created by the utterly failed prohibition.
Drugs don’t kill people in gun deals, but guns are almost always are used to kill people in prohibition violence.
Drugs are used everywhere, but it’s the US with its guns that has the massive amount of prohibition violence.
No one is seriously proposing gun prohibition, just reasonable and constitutional regulation.
No one is seriously proposing that drugs be unregulated.

So, anyone making the lame comparison between guns and drugs is:
Impaired;
Too infatuated with his fetish toy compensations to engage in serious debate;
Too desperately wussy to admit the complete fiasco his prohibition wrought;
Incapable of telling the difference between apples and oranges.
So many wingnuts, so little time.

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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by GoCubsGo » Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:20 pm

Vrede too wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:15 pm
Someone must be drunk or huffing the gun oil.

Drug use is not a “liberal” thing, though utterly failed prohibition is certainly a con thing.
Drugs are rarely used as a tool to kill others, and no one has wiped out an elementary school or country music show with drugs.
Drugs don’t kill people in “deals”. That’s caused by the the black marketplace created by the utterly failed prohibition.
Drugs don’t kill people in gun deals, but guns are almost always are used to kill people in prohibition violence.
Drugs are used everywhere, but it’s the US with its guns that has the massive amount of prohibition violence.
No one is seriously proposing gun prohibition, just reasonable and constitutional regulation.
No one is seriously proposing that drugs be unregulated.

So, anyone making the lame comparison between guns and drugs is:
Impaired;
Too infatuated with his fetish toy compensations to engage in serious debate;
Too desperately wussy to admit the complete fiasco his prohibition wrought;
Incapable of telling the difference between apples and oranges.
Bravo.
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If Guns Made Us Safer, America Would Be The Safest Country In The World.

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neoplacebo
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by neoplacebo » Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:32 am

Vrede too wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:15 pm
Someone must be drunk or huffing the gun oil.

Drug use is not a “liberal” thing, though utterly failed prohibition is certainly a con thing.
Drugs are rarely used as a tool to kill others, and no one has wiped out an elementary school or country music show with drugs.
Drugs don’t kill people in “deals”. That’s caused by the the black marketplace created by the utterly failed prohibition.
Drugs don’t kill people in gun deals, but guns are almost always are used to kill people in prohibition violence.
Drugs are used everywhere, but it’s the US with its guns that has the massive amount of prohibition violence.
No one is seriously proposing gun prohibition, just reasonable and constitutional regulation.
No one is seriously proposing that drugs be unregulated.

So, anyone making the lame comparison between guns and drugs is:
Impaired;
Too infatuated with his fetish toy compensations to engage in serious debate;
Too desperately wussy to admit the complete fiasco his prohibition wrought;
Incapable of telling the difference between apples and oranges.
Ain't it the truth? A good example to consider is cigarettes......after decades of corporate obfuscations and denials that cigarettes are addictive and a health hazard, the facts speak for themselves. Imagine if, in some god awful twist of logic, cigarettes all of a sudden were illegal. I can guarantee you that this would result in a rise in crime among folks wanting to get cigarettes. So the link between prohibition and crime is quite evident. I also find it ironic that you have to piss in a bottle to apply for a job but not to buy a gun. I am in favor of 2nd amendment rights but I am also in favor of 4th amendment rights, which have been trampled via "drug tests" and the Patriot Act.

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O Really
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by O Really » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:58 am

The problem with the hard-core gun nuts and some of their less-fanatical associates is that they take an "all or nothing" approach, making any effort to reduce the liklihood of gun violence that doesn't totally eliminate all possible problems as "useless." But there has to be different parts of solutions to address different parts of the problem. Criminal activity is one part. Accidents are another part. Opportunity events are another. Social engineering is another. Throw a variety of measures at various aspects of the problem - some will work, some may not, but the overall effect will be effective.

F'rinstance, seriously hold people criminally and civilly accountable for what is done with their firearms. If a person thought they'd likely get prosecuted as an accomplice for a crime committed with their gun that was stolen, do you think they might take greater efforts to protect it from theft? If the "opps" defense wasn't so readily available and there was a good chance of criminal/civil liability for "accidental" shooting, do you think it's likely people might check twice that it's not their kid sneaking in late before firing at the "intruder"?

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Leo Lyons
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by Leo Lyons » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:41 am

Vrede too wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:15 pm
Someone must be drunk or huffing the gun oil.

So, anyone making the lame comparison between guns and drugs is:
Impaired;
Too infatuated with his fetish toy compensations to engage in serious debate;
Too desperately wussy to admit the complete fiasco his prohibition wrought;
Incapable of telling the difference between apples and oranges.
Those enhancement pills you're taking are working. You're twice the prick you used to be.

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Leo Lyons
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by Leo Lyons » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:58 am

Vrede too wrote:
Sun Dec 16, 2018 11:15 pm
Someone must be drunk or huffing the gun oil.
As well as "someone's" nose dose runneth over.

Drug use is not a “liberal” thing, though utterly failed prohibition is certainly a con thing.
I implied drug legalization ia a liberal thing. Pay attention.

Drugs are rarely used as a tool to kill others, and no one has wiped out an elementary school or country music show with drugs.
I didn't say they were. Being under the influence is a contributor. Pay attention.

Drugs don’t kill people in “deals”. That’s caused by the the black marketplace created by the utterly failed prohibition.
Drugs don’t kill people in gun deals, but guns are almost always are used to kill people in prohibition violence.
Guns don't kill people. People using guns kill people. Are you naive enough to think gun prohibition will work?

Drugs are used everywhere, but it’s the US with its guns that has the massive amount of prohibition violence.
Guns are used everywhere, but it’s the US with its drugs that has the massive amount of prohibition violence.

No one is seriously proposing gun prohibition, just reasonable and constitutional regulation.
When guns are regulated, only criminals will benefit from regulations.

No one is seriously proposing that drugs be unregulated.
Say what?

So, anyone making the lame comparison between guns and drugs is:
Impaired;
Too infatuated with his fetish toy compensations to engage in serious debate;
Too desperately wussy to admit the complete fiasco his prohibition wrought;
Incapable of telling the difference between apples and oranges.

I love it when you put your sociopathic skills in print. :lol: :lol:

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Leo Lyons
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by Leo Lyons » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:09 am

neoplacebo wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:32 am
A good example to consider is cigarettes......after decades of corporate obfuscations and denials that cigarettes are addictive and a health hazard, the facts speak for themselves. Imagine if, in some god awful twist of logic, cigarettes all of a sudden were illegal. I can guarantee you that this would result in a rise in crime among folks wanting to get cigarettes. So the link between prohibition and crime is quite evident. I also find it ironic that you have to piss in a bottle to apply for a job but not to buy a gun. I am in favor of 2nd amendment rights but I am also in favor of 4th amendment rights, which have been trampled via "drug tests" and the Patriot Act.
I posted something similar to this some time back. In some states, tobacco products has been taxed out the ass, but people still buy them. This DID result in a rise in crime among folks wanting to get cigarettes. People still smuggle them across state lines at a great risk of heavy fines and/or imprisonment.

Prohibited or regulated, guns will still maintain a stronghold in America.
Prohibited or regulated, drugs will still maintain a stronghold in America.

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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by neoplacebo » Mon Dec 17, 2018 1:31 pm

Leo Lyons wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:09 am
neoplacebo wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 8:32 am
A good example to consider is cigarettes......after decades of corporate obfuscations and denials that cigarettes are addictive and a health hazard, the facts speak for themselves. Imagine if, in some god awful twist of logic, cigarettes all of a sudden were illegal. I can guarantee you that this would result in a rise in crime among folks wanting to get cigarettes. So the link between prohibition and crime is quite evident. I also find it ironic that you have to piss in a bottle to apply for a job but not to buy a gun. I am in favor of 2nd amendment rights but I am also in favor of 4th amendment rights, which have been trampled via "drug tests" and the Patriot Act.
I posted something similar to this some time back. In some states, tobacco products has been taxed out the ass, but people still buy them. This DID result in a rise in crime among folks wanting to get cigarettes. People still smuggle them across state lines at a great risk of heavy fines and/or imprisonment.

Prohibited or regulated, guns will still maintain a stronghold in America.
Prohibited or regulated, drugs will still maintain a stronghold in America.
Where I live is less than two miles to the VA border; cigarettes are quite a bit cheaper in VA than TN. Most of the time I don't even go there to buy them since the saving isn't enough for me to make the extra trip just for them. In any case, tobacco addicts will "pay any price, bear any burden, etc" to just fucking get tobacco. The fact is that human behavior just can't be legislated into conformity with some waterhead's idea of what's acceptable. Hell, there are plenty of crazy people out there that have nothing to do with drugs or guns and they will sure as hell kill you as any drug crazed gun wielding nutjob. Another good example of how legislation causes crime (as in the case of drug prohibition) is the US failed prohibition of alcohol for thirteen years in the early 20th century. It was a miserable failure, widely ignored, and caused a tremendous black market with attendant side effects.....Al Capone, Lucky Luciano, etc. The prohibition on drugs has created El Chapo and many lesser fools that wouldn't exist were it not for the US stupid policies about drugs.

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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by neoplacebo » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:21 pm

O Really wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:58 am
The problem with the hard-core gun nuts and some of their less-fanatical associates is that they take an "all or nothing" approach, making any effort to reduce the liklihood of gun violence that doesn't totally eliminate all possible problems as "useless." But there has to be different parts of solutions to address different parts of the problem. Criminal activity is one part. Accidents are another part. Opportunity events are another. Social engineering is another. Throw a variety of measures at various aspects of the problem - some will work, some may not, but the overall effect will be effective.

F'rinstance, seriously hold people criminally and civilly accountable for what is done with their firearms. If a person thought they'd likely get prosecuted as an accomplice for a crime committed with their gun that was stolen, do you think they might take greater efforts to protect it from theft? If the "opps" defense wasn't so readily available and there was a good chance of criminal/civil liability for "accidental" shooting, do you think it's likely people might check twice that it's not their kid sneaking in late before firing at the "intruder"?
Yeah, I agree, It is as if ANY sort of attempt to address an evident problem is automatically resisted and actively attacked by the "enthusiast" crowd. I'm not sure that liability for stolen or otherwise purloined arms should be something to be considered a crime, though.

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Vrede too
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by Vrede too » Mon Dec 17, 2018 3:38 pm

"prosecuted as an accomplice for a crime committed with their gun that was stolen" might be a bit extreme if not also unconstitutional. However, laxity in securing arms when that gun was then used in a crime could be its own crime with severe penalties.
So many wingnuts, so little time.

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