The Cinema Thread

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billy.pilgrim
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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by billy.pilgrim » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:08 am

O Really wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:02 am
Vrede too wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 9:58 am


Just curious, out of all the choices available, how do the O Reallys settle on a movie with "The Rock" and a 50-foot albino gorilla? :P
Well, sometimes we like mindless action films, but actually the choices available to us might not be as wide as you think. In many cases, they're limited to what's in a Redbox close to where we are. Sure, we can stream, but mobile internet can get a bit expensive if you stream a lot, so we don't stream many films. We rarely go to a real cinema. We've got a 60" screen with surround-sound and blu-ray. Doesn't sound so great to spend $20+ to sit in a meat locker with the possibility of some guy behind coughing and hacking down your neck. The only downside is that you have to wait a little after a film comes out in theatres. Nottaproblem.

Added bonus: watching at your own place greatly reduces the chance of some retired donut eater shooting you for texting during the previews.


https://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/cr ... 10/2315088
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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by billy.pilgrim » Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:24 am

Vrede too wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 1:02 pm
billy.pilgrim wrote:
Sat Jul 28, 2018 12:14 pm
Not sure that mine has. I'm seeing someone who picked an agenda and wrote an article.

Avatar was about a culture/race/species/whatever being exploited by another technicality more advanced group - They could have been anything. Some of these exploiters had a change of heart. In this case the hero was a disabled white man (helped by a woman of color) and the evil villain was a white guy. The hero could as easily been a disabled asian or african man or woman or ninja turtle and the story would have played the same.

Not a topic I'm expert on, but I think their point is that it was a white guy rather than those other options.

Now, The Water is Wide: I never saw the movie (don't like voight) but read the book, his first other than short stories, years ago after reading all of his much better books. It's mostly autobiographical, it's real, it happened. The idea of a white savior is evident in the Galt character pushed by some Andy Randy type, but not here. This is simply one of life's stories about a time when truth often required a white person to stand up for people who our society deemed 2nd class.

Agreed, you have to stay true to reality. I suspect their response would be that the autobiographical movie that got made is the one with a white savior figure. So, it applies to script choices as well as casting choices.

I could go on, but not now except for this - does the wiki definition of White Savior mean that anytime a film has mixed races and one of the white guys is the good guy (even if he is helped by other races) that it is an example of a white savior film?

I think they mean where THE savior is a white guy. I was struck by The Matrix being on the list, it somewhat fits your description. They say:
Neo (played by mixed-race actor Keanu Reeves who passes as white) who becomes The One to save humanity.... "the white messiah [who] has a racially diverse team of helpers". They say, "... the black characters—Morpheus, the Oracle, and Morpheus's crew members Tank and Dozer—are disciples who serve the white Messiah Neo."
I never knew that Keanu Reeves is mixed-race - white mom, very mixed-race dad including some white.

But they include a contrary view:
"On the whole, the quest... appears to be more a mission led by a black man and woman than one led by a white savior... the black characters are easily read as symbolic cultural touchstones and respective reminders of the civil rights and Black Power movements."
There is much more to context. I might even go so far as to defend Tarzan books and movies from this white savior badge. Sure the white Tarzan (friend of animals and natives) is defender of all that is good and even women too, but the bad guys are nearly always European and American.

Out of all of the Tarzan movies, they only include The Legend of Tarzan. They say:
Tarzan, raised by apes in Africa and then returned to England as Lord Greystoke, returns to Africa and fights the slave trade.
My memory is that in most of the Tarzan movies the black Africans are props if they appear at all, neither foes nor people being saved.

And then, we can't leave out The Cisco Kid - the illegal Mexican immigrant who flaunts his back and forth illegal border crossings while saving white women and children from mean evil white men and crooked white sheriff Joe and deputy Clarke types.

The Cisco Kid doesn't make their list. There are obviously hundreds or thousands of movies that aren't about white saviors.

Again, it's not all bad by any means, and it's not that all of the nonwhites are passive. Several on the list are black-positive classics: 12 Years a Slave, Amistad, The Blind Side, Cool Runnings, Cry Freedom, Django Unchained, Glory, The Help, Mississippi Burning, To Kill a Mockingbird, etc.

All I'm seeing here is some serious snowflake type spinning and twisting. It's almost as if some are decrying white people having a positive role in any movie.

Amistad - really? Someone, I often agree with, labels this story as White Savior? Such a shame that Adams wasn't portrayed as an African American.

Of course we often see a white guy as the hero and it is often true that the white guy represents (andy randie type bullshit and John Wayne saving white women from nasty injuns) goodness and light only because they are shown as the masters of all that is goodness and light.

So, sure there are many of these Birth of a Nation type films, but the majority are simply due to greater numbers of white people and the far greater ability of white people to effect change over the brief history of film - both of these demographics are changing, but claiming historical events portrayed in today's movies are examples of the white savior seem like just so much bullshit.

Y'all moved my opinion on the monuments, but this wiki article seems to me to be bs snowflakiness much ado about nutin.
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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:39 pm

billy.pilgrim wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:24 am
All I'm seeing here is some serious snowflake type spinning and twisting. It's almost as if some are decrying white people having a positive role in any movie.

A little hyperbolic?

Amistad - really? Someone, I often agree with, labels this story as White Savior?

I'm not familiar with Noah Berlatsky. How do you know of him?

Such a shame that Adams wasn't portrayed as an African American.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_sav ... t_of_films
"In the 1830s, a group of African slaves who commit mutiny are captured by the U.S. military, and a legal battle ensues in which the white lawyer John Quincy Adams (played by Anthony Hopkins) defends their right to be freed."

Do you disagree with that description? I haven't gotten around to seeing it.


Of course we often see a white guy as the hero and it is often true that the white guy represents (andy randie type bullshit and John Wayne saving white women from nasty injuns) goodness and light only because they are shown as the masters of all that is goodness and light.

:D The Green Berets is on the list.
"The Vietnam War film depicts a white U.S. Army Special Forces commander (played by John Wayne) who fights for the people of South Vietnam."
I'm not sure why more Vietnam War films aren't on this list. Maybe because most of them are all about Americans and not really the notion of fighting FOR the people of South Vietnam.


So, sure there are many of these Birth of a Nation type films,

I think they're saying that the genre is paternalistic and dismissive of the "saved", not overtly racist like Birth of a Nation.

but the majority are simply due to greater numbers of white people and the far greater ability of white people to effect change over the brief history of film - both of these demographics are changing, but claiming historical events portrayed in today's movies are examples of the white savior seem like just so much bullshit.

Again, I think their response to that would be that the bias lies in which historical events get chosen to be put on film, not that they've monkeyed with the history or should monkey with it. There may be some examples where the white savior is overemphasized, but I don't know. I doubt there are any where the white savior is underemphasized.

Then, there are the examples that are pure fiction, not history.


Y'all moved my opinion on the monuments,

I don't know what you're talking about. I don't have ability to move anyone's posts and haven't had it for 3(?)+ years.

but this wiki article seems to me to be bs snowflakiness much ado about nutin.

I'm no crusader on this. It's just something I'll look out for in film and assess on a case-by-case basis. As I began with, I'm as shocked by the list as you are, though not as critical.
Last edited by Vrede too on Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by billy.pilgrim » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:15 pm

Moved my thinking through discussion.
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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:46 pm

billy.pilgrim wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 1:15 pm
Moved my thinking through discussion.
Ah :oops: :lol:

I'm not trying to move your thinking on 'white savior' films. I can opine on overt and big picture racism, but am not enough of a film or racism expert to pontificate on more subtle things like this. I've just tried to present their arguments as I understand them and am definitely hearing your contrary opinions as well.
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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by O Really » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:14 pm

So what is the primary goal of the major film makers? That would be to make a bunch of money. So how do they make money? They get lots of people to pay a lot to go see their film, and they sell the rights to show it to Redbox, etc. in the hopes more people will pay to watch it. So who are the majority of those who go see the movies? That would be mostly white people, if for no other reason than historically they've just been the overall majority of the population. So would white people generally relate better to a hero who is also white, or one who isn't? So it should be no surprise that a large number of films over the years have had white people in the lead roles. Seems to be changing somewhat, but even historically I don't know that it's usually been some "Birth of a Nation" sub-plot instead of just trying to sell tickets to the audience you've got and want to keep.

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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:57 pm

O Really wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:14 pm
So what is the primary goal of the major film makers? That would be to make a bunch of money. So how do they make money? They get lots of people to pay a lot to go see their film, and they sell the rights to show it to Redbox, etc. in the hopes more people will pay to watch it. So who are the majority of those who go see the movies? That would be mostly white people, if for no other reason than historically they've just been the overall majority of the population. So would white people generally relate better to a hero who is also white, or one who isn't? So it should be no surprise that a large number of films over the years have had white people in the lead roles. Seems to be changing somewhat, but even historically I don't know that it's usually been some "Birth of a Nation" sub-plot instead of just trying to sell tickets to the audience you've got and want to keep.
All true, but the claim is not just about white people movies. It's also about the "saving" of a population of nonwhites. The Wiki page makes the case that many of these films arose out of a sincere intention to "do right" by oppressed real world blacks.

Birth of a Nation does not appear on the list. "Good" whites aren't "saving" blacks in it. They're saving other whites from blacks and "bad" whites.

The Wiki page is not long and detailed as Wiki pages go. There's not a lot of discussion as to the interplay of factors that lead to this. It's mostly a description of the phenomena. I looked at one of the citations to learn more.
12 Years a Slave: Yet Another Oscar-Nominated 'White Savior' Story
The Academy, like the movie industry overall, tends to gravitate toward stories about slavery when they feature a merciful white man bringing freedom.


A few weeks back, I noted that there are not many movies about slavery. Given that, though, the list of slavery films that have been real contenders come Academy Award season has been surprisingly large....

Despite the number of films, though, there's a relative paucity of thematic range. All of these critically acclaimed films use variations on a single narrative: Black people are oppressed by bad white people. They achieve freedom through the offices of good white people. Happy ending....

The white savior in 12 Years probably wouldn't be off-putting at all except for the fact that, in Daniel José Older's words, "Did we really need yet another white savior narrative?"
Sounds like the issue is in part not with the genre, but with the unanimity of it. To the extent that's true, I suppose one could say that there's not a problem with any one film appearing on the list, but rather that such a long list can be made.
... Indigo isn't great art, but it is refreshing to encounter a narrative about slavery which doesn't define black people entirely through their slavery or their freedom—and which, therefore, doesn't define black people in terms of the white folks who torment or liberate them. And that's the kind of narrative Hollywood needs more of. I love 12 Years A Slave, admire Django and Glory, and think Amistad and Lincoln are sanctimonious drivel. But they'd all be better if they existed in a context of other films that allowed for different kinds of stories. Hollywood’s insistence that white people have set black people free seems like a sign that maybe, possibly, we could stand to hear other truths, both about the past and about the present.
I'm not entirely sure but it looks like Noah Berlatsky is a white guy, despite the 'fro.

Image

Is he a 'white savior'? :D I haven't checked to see how many of the Wiki citations are by nonwhites.
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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by billy.pilgrim » Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:17 am

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp/n ... ay-1135816


Big opening night box office for Spacey.
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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:29 am

billy.pilgrim wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:17 am
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp/n ... ay-1135816

Big opening night box office for Spacey.
Production Budget: $15,000,000 Estimated

Ouch.

Even allowing for the anti-Spacey bias, it got crappy reviews:
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/billionaire_boys_club
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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by billy.pilgrim » Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:40 am

Vrede too wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 10:29 am
billy.pilgrim wrote:
Sun Aug 19, 2018 8:17 am
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/amp/n ... ay-1135816

Big opening night box office for Spacey.
Production Budget: $15,000,000 Estimated

Ouch.

Even allowing for the anti-Spacey bias, it got crappy reviews:
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/billionaire_boys_club

Subtract the $45 from the single biggest box office take and that leaves $81 split between the other 99 theaters.

Lot o empty seats
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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:30 am

Vrede too wrote:
Fri Jul 27, 2018 10:37 pm
White savior narrative in film

Nothing earthshaking there, I was thinking some of these things watching Conrack, though it's good to get reminded. Then, I scrolled downs to List of films. Holy crap, look at all of them! Avatar, Cool Runnings, The Green Berets, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, The Matrix, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, Three Kings! That's not to say that they're automatically "bad" or should have been made differently, but my perspective has been broadened.
I just watched McFarland, USA. It's included in the White savior narrative in film: List of films.
A white coach (played by Kevin Costner) trains an all-Latino high school cross country running team. The Atlantic said, "[It] has invoked some groans among critics who recognize its 'white savior' premise. Some say it transcends its paradigmatic trappings—others have claimed it's a film about easing white people into a more diverse America." Director Niki Caro said, "We were very conscious of not making a white savior movie, and you could have with the material, but it was really important for us that he be a flawed guy who was ultimately redeemed by the community. You see him become a better coach, a better father and a better man through his interaction with this place and these people."
Sounds fair, it's not too paternalistic.
McFarland, USA

McFarland, USA (also known as McFarland) is a 2015 American sports drama film directed by Niki Caro, produced by Mark Ciardi and Gordon Gray, written by Christopher Cleveland, Bettina Gilois and Grant Thompson with music composed by Antônio Pinto. The film was co-produced by Walt Disney Pictures and Mayhem Pictures. Based on the true story of a 1987 cross country team from a mainly Latino high school in McFarland, California, the film stars Kevin Costner as Jim White, the school's coach, who leads the team to win a state championship. The film also stars Maria Bello and Morgan Saylor.

McFarland, USA was released on February 20, 2015, received positive reviews from critics, and grossed over $45 million....
Minuses:
It's a largely cookie cutter high school sports story.
Kevin Costner is his usual earnest, low key, somewhat tormented but not broken self.

Pluses:
It's loosely based on a true story.
It's set in dirt poor but tight McFarland, CA, and its protagonists are the Mexican produce picking sons of produce picking parents. The community and culture are presented positively and it's informative.
Some wicked cross cultural humor.
Kevin Costner is not sappy and self-centered like he sometimes can be.
Maria Bello is solid as always.

I liked it.

James White (cross-country)

Trivia:
Older daughter, now 23 Morgan Saylor is a successful film and TV actress.
Younger daughter, now 15 Elsie Fisher is the star of this year's highly acclaimed Eighth Grade.
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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Sat Aug 25, 2018 2:24 pm

Sausage Party

Sausage Party grossed $97.7 million in North America and $42.8 million in other territories for a worldwide total of $140.4 million, against a budget of $19 million. The film is the most commercially successful R-rated animated film of all time, replacing South Park: Bigger, Longer & Uncut (which held the record for 17 years), and made a net profit of $47.06 million, when factoring together all expenses and revenues....
It is nasty, awful . . . and I loved it.
The film received an R rating for strong crude sexual content, pervasive language and drug use. However, when Rogen first submitted the film to the MPAA, they assigned it with an NC-17 rating due to the visibility of pubic hair on (Armenian flatbread) Lavash's scrotum during the food orgy scene. Following the removal of the pubic hair, the MPAA granted the film an R rating.
:headscratch:

Looper

Looper is a 2012 American science fiction thriller film written and directed by Rian Johnson, and produced by Ram Bergman and James D. Stern. It stars Bruce Willis, Joseph Gordon-Levitt, and Emily Blunt. It revolves around criminal syndicates using contracted killers called "loopers" to kill victims sent through time travel.

Looper was selected as the opening film of the 2012 Toronto International Film Festival and was released in the United States on September 28, 2012. The film grossed $176 million on a $30 million budget, while receiving critical acclaim.

... On Rotten Tomatoes, the film has a rating of 93% based on 253 reviews, with an average rating of 8.1/10 (AUDIENCE SCORE 82% liked it).
Whoa, trippy. :clap:
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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:10 am

Just as trippy:

Source Code

:clap: :clap: Even before I saw the reviews saying something similar, I thought: Like Groundhog Day, except everybody keeps dying.
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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by GoCubsGo » Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:02 pm

Vrede too wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:10 am
Just as trippy:

Source Code

:clap: :clap: Even before I saw the reviews saying something similar, I thought: Like Groundhog Day, except everybody keeps dying.
Sounds like a dollop of Matrix thrown in. Netflix?
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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:49 pm

GoCubsGo wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 1:02 pm
Sounds like a dollop of Matrix thrown in.

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that.

Netflix?

Idk. It was on TNT, the stations often do multiple showings.
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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by JosephDyer » Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:52 pm

I read some place that R. Lee Ermey basically advertisement libbed the whole opening scene of Full Metal Jacket.

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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:01 pm

I'm not going to watch because of its mediocre rating, but this is an interesting blurb for a comedy:
The Voices
1 hr 45 min 2014 R

A shipping clerk stops taking his antipsychotic meds, and soon his cat is imploring him to kill. Later, his refrigerator filling with taunting, decapitated heads, the outwardly amiable clerk falls for a coworker who fails to sense that he's dangerous.
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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by JosephDyer » Fri Sep 07, 2018 7:00 pm

O Really wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:14 pm
film makers
A tricky subject to be sure, but all of these videos assume that the sole aim of being a filmmaker is to make money.

Sometimes...making films basically isn't tied in with profiting, it's tied in with making films. Inquire as to whether making music is a sensible method to bring home the bacon. It isn't, it's presumably the most noticeably bad route on the planet to profit. So for what reason do they trouble? Here and there life is about the stuff you improve the situation yourself not about the things you do to for a wage. There are a lot of individuals out there that have no aim of making a penny from their film, they simply need to make one. Much the same as the general population that need to compose a novel, instead of some duplicate for a Doritos promotion, and individuals who'd preferably influence trial jazz than a jingle at the most recent cost correlation with site

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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:29 pm

O Really wrote:
Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:14 pm
So what is the primary goal of the major film makers? That would be to make a bunch of money. So how do they make money? They get lots of people to pay a lot to go see their film, and they sell the rights to show it to Redbox, etc. in the hopes more people will pay to watch it. So who are the majority of those who go see the movies? That would be mostly white people, if for no other reason than historically they've just been the overall majority of the population. So would white people generally relate better to a hero who is also white, or one who isn't? So it should be no surprise that a large number of films over the years have had white people in the lead roles. Seems to be changing somewhat, but even historically I don't know that it's usually been some "Birth of a Nation" sub-plot instead of just trying to sell tickets to the audience you've got and want to keep.
I saw JosephDyer's response to your post and instantly thought 'bot'. Then, I read your post and saw that JosephDyer's is somewhat on point. Then, I saw this:
JosephDyer wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 3:52 pm
I read some place that R. Lee Ermey basically advertisement libbed the whole opening scene of Full Metal Jacket.
"advertisement libbed" :lol:
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Re: The Cinema Thread

Unread post by O Really » Fri Sep 07, 2018 8:39 pm

His post looks like an auto-translate from some other language.

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