The Worker Thread

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Vrede too
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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:13 pm

If government is going to try and pick winners with our money, I want evidence suggesting reasonable certainty of success. Otherwise, I want the money spent on infrastructure things that we know work for our benefit, things that also create jobs.

An example, not necessarily a direct correlation to Amazon - Military spending creates jobs, and people think that it pulled us out of the Great Depression. Instead, it was massive government spending in general that did that, and military spending creates fewer jobs per dollar invested than just about any alternative.

I want government to do what it's supposed to - act in all our interest, then let the market sort out which companies take advantage of having a strong community or state. Competing to give public resources to individual companies is just a a race to the bottom.
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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by O Really » Mon Feb 12, 2018 9:05 am

I don't know that building infrastructure, schools, etc. is necessarily an either/or proposition with attracting industry. The Carolinas are littered with old textile mills that once were the economic backbone of the town. We can agree that those mills arrived there for their own potential profitability, were pretty sleazy operators, and weren't the best employers in the world from an employee standpoint. But people had reasonably stable jobs. I'm pretty sure most people in those areas would find their government to be working in their interest if it worked to recruit new and hopefully better employers.

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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:05 am

EPI's point is that this type of recruitment, at least with Amazon, doesn't work in a community's interest. I believe in evidence-based spending, not just wishful thinking that lines the pockets of fat cats.
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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by O Really » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:21 am

If EPI's point was that "this type of recruitment, at least with Amazon, doesn't work in a community's interest," then it failed miserably. Little to none of the "community's interest" was addressed other than the data on total county employment and total warehousing/distribution employment. Assuming their data to be accurate and their analysis to be competent, the article still addressed only one aspect of the impact of (an) Amazon and covered only two years.

Back to RTP, with a much longer history than Amazon, although opened in 1959, it was largely still empty in 1965, until then-Governor Terry Sandford began working on it.

"Reflecting these efforts in 1965, the federal government decided to locate its new environmental initiative in Research Triangle Park.21 The Park became the site of the National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences, at the time the only arm of the National Institutes of Health located outside of Bethesda, Md. This deal was reportedly facilitated by an offer of free land for the project from the Research Triangle Foundation.

The same year, IBM agreed to establish a presence in the park; the Foundation’s Vice President, Akers Moore, who managed much of the negotiation, declined to provide details in an interview 15 years later, except to observe that, “it was the most secretive, cloak-and-dagger deal you can possibly imagine”. According to one source, the state clinched the deal with a commitment to link the Park with Raleigh and Cary with a 4-lane highway, which has become today’s Interstate 40.22 According to another source, the courtship of IBM was a 7-year effort in which a key role was played by UNC Professor Fred Brooks, a former IBM researcher who developed the System/360 computers and operating system software. Four decades later, IBM remains RTP’s largest employer, with 11,000 workers.23 In the decades that followed, IBM brought about 40 IBM organizations to RTP, including a significant part of its product development and headquarters functions. By 2002, its RTP facility was one of the company’s largest in the world.24"

RTP has been one of the most significant initiatives in North Carolina ever, and there's at least a reasonable possibility that it would still be populated with more cows than people if it hadn't been for governmental efforts.

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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:58 am

Supposed jobs creation is perhaps the biggest community interest selling point that Amazon uses. Two years seems sufficient to gauge the accuracy of this claim.

As for other impacts, we can assume the negatives of school costs, traffic increases, more crime, environmental harm, strains on fire, police and healthcare resources, etc. Of course, there is less money to address these than there would be with other development since its been handed to Amazon in the form of tax breaks and direct subsidies. Now, communities can and do deem that these costs of development are worth it, but they have a responsibility to ID how. If the jobs increase ain’t there the argument becomes a lot shakier.

Haven’t you “failed miserably” in proving that tax dollar gifts to Amazon are in the community interest? So far, all I’ve seen is wishful speculation in response to an expert study. The burden should be on the proponents of such corporate welfare to prove that it works rather than its success being an unchallenged assumption.

The National Institute of Environmental Health Sciences at RTP and “a commitment to link the Park with Raleigh and Cary with a 4-lane highway” is the kind of government investment that I HAVE BEEN supporting. They are infrastructure development without funding particular winners. Your attempt to equate support for them to throwing money at Amazon doesn’t hold water.
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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by O Really » Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:37 pm

I'm not really so much arguing against EPI's conclusions as saying "so what?" Most areas think that if a company is in a clean industry with above-average pay and isn't putting locals out of business, that coming to town is a good thing. Other areas may, and do, disagree and would prefer to remain less commercial or even bucolic. And certainly some industries befoul the works just by their existence. But bottom line, for a given area, having new industry is either good or it's not. If it's not good, then they should make every effort to keep it out, like was done with some Wal-Marts several years ago, as well as other "nuisance" companies. But if the company coming in is a good thing for the community, then it seems counter-intuitive to say that it's a bad thing for the community to try to attract it. It's my opinion, not as a statistician but as a citizen, that there is value to attracting clean, progressive, well-paying companies that exceeds simple return on financial investment.

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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:37 pm

O Really wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:37 pm
.... But if the company coming in is a good thing for the community, then it seems counter-intuitive to say that it's a bad thing for the community to try to attract it....
I'm with you up to the point of favoring particular companies with direct subsidies. Amazon is not some struggling bootstrap outfit that needs our help to succeed.

We also disagree on just how benign Amazon is.
rstrong wrote:
Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:08 pm
TigerSwan is in the news again:

Gizmodo: Data Breach Exposes Thousands of Job Seekers Citing Top Secret Government Work
Thousands of files containing the personal information and expertise of Americans with classified and up to Top Secret security clearances have been exposed by an unsecured Amazon server, potentially for most of the year.
Their defense: "It wasn't us! It was the people we subcontracted the work to!
Vrede too wrote:
Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:02 am
Image

Petition to members of the House and Senate Judiciary Committees:

"Hold hearings on the Amazon-Whole Foods merger and investigate the potential for Amazon’s growing monopoly to cost jobs, lower wages, and crush local businesses."
Vrede too wrote:
Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:41 am
... In fact, in your link Sleeping Giants cites a Buzzfeed article that says:
... A viral petition on the activism site SumOfUs.org titled “Amazon: Stop Investing in Hate” has collected over 311,000 signatures.
rstrong wrote:
Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:08 am
Breitbart's Lost Over 2,200 Advertisers
The over 2,200 companies include ConEd, Subaru, Toyota, and T-Mobile, thanks in part to Sleeping Giants, an activist group which tweets several times a day at companies which unwittingly advertise there via third-party vendors. (Amazon remains on the advertising roster).
[...]
After the election, its readers are leaving, too. The Washington Post reports that traffic is down 53 percent since November.
I don't believe that Yet Another Online Petition had any effect whatsoever. But Sleeping Giants seems to deserve a lot of credit.
Vrede too wrote:
Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:32 am
Eight men own same as poorest half of world: Oxfam

... The wealth of the world's poorest 3.6 billion people is the equivalent to the combined net worth of six American businessmen, one from Spain and another from Mexico.

Picked from Forbes' billionaires list, they include Microsoft founder Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg who co-founded Facebook, and Jeff Bezos, founder of Amazon....
Vrede too wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2016 4:07 pm
Tell Amazon: Dump Trump

Despite Donald Trump's sexist, racist comments, Amazon is promoting and profiting from him and his brand.

The online behemoth sells Trump's line of menswear--even though companies like Macy's bailed on Trump's brand of hate last year.

Trump is inciting violence at his rallies and spewing vitriol that white supremacists like David Duke love. So why is Amazon continuing to support the Trump empire? Many of us use Amazon, and the company has responded to our pressure before over the selling of sexist products. It needs to follow suit when it comes to Trump products. Will you add your name now?

Tell Amazon CEO Jeff Bezos:
"Reject Trump's sexism, racism, and xenophobia. Stop selling Trump products."
rstrong wrote:
Mon Jun 08, 2015 7:38 pm
Woody Allen is creating a TV series for Amazon.

My guess for the title: "How I Met Your Daughter."
Amazon.com controversies

Ugh. Very relevant to both this chat and your own career is: Treatment of workers/Warehouse conditions.
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by O Really » Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:49 pm


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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:37 am

Instead of throwing our money at Amazon and other massive corporations . . .
North Carolina slips in national ranking on public education

Issues with school funding and student achievement dropped North Carolina to 40th in the country in a new report card on public education, continuing a downward trend in the rankings for the Tar Heel state.

North Carolina received a C- grade and a score of 70.6 out of a possible 100 in the 2018 Quality Counts report released this week by Education Week. That’s below the national grade of C and score of 74.5

North Carolina’s score put it 40th out of the 50 states and the District of Columbia.

The state’s standing compared with the rest of the nation has been steadily declining since North Carolina was ranked as high as 19th in 2011....
19th best to 40th in just 7 years. Thanks, GOP!
NC’s top education leader (R) says $35,000 is ‘good money’ for some new teachers

... “Thirty-five thousand dollars for a professional, even as a starting salary, is not a good starting salary,” Marsh said. “I have a friend whose daughter is younger than my son who as a beautician makes over $50,000 a year.” ...

But looking only at college graduates, students majoring in other professions reported much higher starting salaries than new teachers. The average salary for an education major in the Class of 2017 was $37,046 nationally, compared to $74,183 for computer science majors, $64,530 for engineering majors and $53,259 for math and statistics majors, according to the National Association of Colleges and Employers....
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by O Really » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:15 pm

Teaching has never been a particularly good-paying job, and may not be any relatively worse now than it has been historically. Problem is, the Republicans have gone on a search and destroy mission to attack all the non-cash benefits that made teaching a good choice. Job security - gone. Good health insurance - mostly gone. Pension - mostly gone. Union/association protection - mostly gone. Respect in community - mostly gone. Creativity - gone. Sense of "making a difference" - mostly gone. Take away all the non-cash and what are you left with? A crappy job that pays less than one of those Amazon warehouse workers. I remember when politicians like governors would run on a platform of improving schools, better teacher pay, fixing "Why Johnny Can't Read"... yada.

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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Wed Feb 21, 2018 5:26 pm

Urge your Senator to stop EPA from letting kids handle pesticides

Image

While Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Administrator Scott Pruitt makes headlines for lavish travel expenses, behind the scenes he’s quietly directing the agency to roll back health protections for teenage farmworkers. This is unacceptable.

A congressional letter is circulating telling Mr. Pruitt not to put the health of young farmworkers at risk. Ask your Senators to sign on!

Apparently Administrator Pruitt thinks it’s OK for teenagers under the age of 18 to handle pesticides — but the science shows he’s dead wrong. That’s exactly why the old Worker Protection Standard (WPS) was finally updated in 2015, after years of advocacy by PAN and our partners.

The new rules are designed to protect young farmworkers from exposure to chemicals that are known to harm growing minds and bodies. Now Pruitt is putting these rules on hold — ignoring both scientific evidence and the normal policy process.

Tell your Senators to sign on to the “Dear Colleague” letter initiated by Senators Udall, Harris and Blumenthal telling Administrator Pruitt this is not acceptable.

As the letter notes, the lives of children and families across the country are at stake, and Pruitt’s EPA is once again putting the interests of a handful of corporations above the public good.

Thank you for adding your voice!

Pesticide Action Network North America
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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:33 pm

Thank you for taking the time to contact me about age restrictions for pesticide applicators. I appreciate hearing from you.

On December 19, 2017, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) published a notice of proposed rulemaking to revise the minimum age requirements in the Certification of Pesticide Applicators rule. On December 21, 2017, the EPA published a separate notice indicating that the agency has also initiated the rulemaking process to revise certain requirements under the Agricultural Worker Protection Standard. Both of the regulations under review were identified, through public comments, as regulations that may be appropriate for repeal, replacement, or modifications as a part of President Trump’s Regulatory Reform Agenda efforts.

As a United States Senator, one of my greatest responsibilities is to hold the federal government accountable to the American people. Under the Obama Administration, some federal agencies overstepped the authority granted them by Congress and implemented policies that harm hardworking taxpayers and slow our nation’s economic growth – sometimes without any measurable benefits. We have a unique opportunity, under this administration, to bolster public and environmental health while rolling back gross government overreach.

In the course of considering any reforms to the pesticide application standards or processes, it will be my goal to strike a responsible balance to enhanced consumer or applicator protections and reduce unworkable regulations that stifle American farmers and business owners. Please know that, if this issue comes before the full Senate, I will remember your concerns.

Again, thank you for taking the time to contact me. Please do not hesitate to contact me again about other important issues.

Sincerely,
Thom Tillis (R-NC)
U.S. Senator
:roll: :oII
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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by O Really » Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:01 pm

BREAKING: Title VII Bars Sexual Orientation Discrimination, 2nd Circ. Says
The Second Circuit ruled Monday that discrimination based on sexual orientation violates Title VII, handing a win to the estate of a deceased skydiving instructor who was allegedly fired for telling a client he was gay.


:clap: :clap:

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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:05 pm

O Really wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:01 pm
BREAKING: Title VII Bars Sexual Orientation Discrimination, 2nd Circ. Says
The Second Circuit ruled Monday that discrimination based on sexual orientation violates Title VII, handing a win to the estate of a deceased skydiving instructor who was allegedly fired for telling a client he was gay.

:clap: :clap:
Wow.

Image

:o :D
Appeals Court Rules Anti-Gay Employment Discrimination Is Already Illegal Under Federal Law

On Monday, the 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled that federal law already prohibits anti-gay employment discrimination. Its 10–3 decision in Zarda v. Altitude Express is a landmark victory for gay rights, affirming the growing judicial consensus that sexual orientation discrimination constitutes discrimination “because of sex.”

In his opinion for the court, Chief Judge Robert Katzmann provided three reasons why Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964—which prohibits sex discrimination in the workplace—protects gay employees. First, Katzmann explained that “sexual orientation discrimination is motivated, at least in part, by sex and is thus a subset of sex discrimination.” To “identify the sexual orientation of a particular person,” an employer must “know the sex of the person and that of the people to whom he or she is attracted.” He continued:
Because one cannot fully define a person’s sexual orientation without identifying his or her sex, sexual orientation is a function of sex. Indeed sexual orientation is doubly delineated by sex because it is a function of both a person’s sex and the sex of those to whom he or she is attracted. Logically, because sexual orientation is a function of sex and sex is a protected characteristic under Title VII, it follows that sexual orientation is also protected.
... In all, ten judges—including two Republican appointees—agreed with Katzmann that Title VII forbids sexual orientation discrimination. Only three disagreed....

With its Zarda decision, the 2nd Circuit has aligned itself with the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, both of which assert that Title VII bars anti-gay workplace discrimination. (So have dozens of lower courts.) Zarda vigorously rejects the position put forth by the Trump administration that Title VII does not protect all gay employees. (The 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals has also adopted that position.) Attorney General Jeff Sessions’ Department of Justice took the unusual step of filing an unsolicited brief in Zarda against gay rights, then arguing against gay employees in court. Given Monday’s lopsided outcome, the DOJ might as well have saved its breath.

Eventually, the Supreme Court will have to resolve the scope of Title VII’s protections for LGBTQ employees. But it is in no hurry to do so, and the defendants in Zarda have indicated that they won’t appeal Monday’s decision. For the foreseeable future, then, the ruling will remain the law of the land within the 2nd Circuit, which covers New York, Connecticut, and Vermont. And gay employees elsewhere can cite Zarda to demonstrate that, no matter what the Trump administration says, Title VII protects their right to work free from homophobia.
10-3! :clap: :clap: If eventually upheld by SCOTUS, the Employment Non-Discrimination Act will be less necessary, though it's always good to have the relative certainty of law rather than relying exclusively on court ruling.

I'm guessing that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 would have been harder to pass if anyone had known. :D
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by GoCubsGo » Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:49 am

Score one for the good guys. Maybe if The Bald Orangutan had read the bill or had his line item veto he could've stolen more from his workers.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/massive- ... 30456.html
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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:40 pm

GoCubsGo wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:49 am
Score one for the good guys. Maybe if The Bald Orangutan had read the bill or had his line item veto he could've stolen more from his workers.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/massive- ... 30456.html
Image
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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by billy.pilgrim » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:52 pm

Vrede too wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:40 pm
GoCubsGo wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 12:49 am
Score one for the good guys. Maybe if The Bald Orangutan had read the bill or had his line item veto he could've stolen more from his workers.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/massive- ... 30456.html
Image
yet on this really weird wing-nut site where the world is reversed it was all a left wing plot



"A Strike Against Socialism, Deregulated Tipping
« on: Today at 05:51:00 AM »

Hidden in the OMNIBUS Bill, was a little law that stopped the theft of a workers wage that forced a business to redistribute wages earned by another to the undeserving.
That's right, the left had passed a Bill that allowed a manager the power to confiscate the fruits of another's labor and keep some for themselves."
George Carlin said “The owners know the truth. It’s called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.”

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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Thu Apr 12, 2018 1:17 pm

Tell the NLRB: protect employees’ right to freely vote in a union election

President Trump’s National Labor Relations Board wants to change the rules so that it’s even harder for workers to have a voice on the job and a free and fair election for a union.

Now’s your chance, before the board changes any rules, to speak up for a fair union election process by telling the NLRB to protect our democratic rights in the workplace.

Tell Trump’s NLRB that it should be easier, not harder, for workers to have a voice on the job.
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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:16 pm

Image
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Re: The Worker Thread

Unread post by Vrede too » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:41 am

Vrede too wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:05 pm
O Really wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:01 pm
BREAKING: Title VII Bars Sexual Orientation Discrimination, 2nd Circ. Says
The Second Circuit ruled Monday that discrimination based on sexual orientation violates Title VII, handing a win to the estate of a deceased skydiving instructor who was allegedly fired for telling a client he was gay.

:clap: :clap:
Wow.
Appeals Court Rules Anti-Gay Employment Discrimination Is Already Illegal Under Federal Law

... With its Zarda decision, the 2nd Circuit has aligned itself with the 7th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals and the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, both of which assert that Title VII bars anti-gay workplace discrimination. (So have dozens of lower courts.) ...
10-3! :clap: :clap: If eventually upheld by SCOTUS, the Employment Non-Discrimination Act will be less necessary, though it's always good to have the relative certainty of law rather than relying exclusively on court ruling.

I'm guessing that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 would have been harder to pass if anyone had known. :D
6th Circuit Court of Appeals, too:

A Federal Court Just Made a Big Decision About Transgender Rights
Wednesday’s ruling is a win for transgender employees.
It really is time to stop being nice about stupidity.

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