Whitewashing Congressional Voting Records

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rstrong
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Whitewashing Congressional Voting Records

Unread post by rstrong » Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:52 am

Yesterday the Senate officially voted to renew and expand Section 702, handing Trump six more years of warrantless spying on Americans.

Senator Jeff Flake voted for cloture, helping to prevent any debate on such surveillance, and blocking any amendments. But then just hours later he went on the Senate floor to compare Trump to Stalin, and warn that American democracy may not survive.

Senator Dianne Feinstein introduced a last-minute amendment that would have required a warrant to search the data collected under 702. But then within an hour or so, she voted to block that amendment from even being voted on. And then voted to continue and expand surveillance.

Etc., etc. etc.

Any bets on which of the contradictory actions they'll be campaigning on in the next election cycle?

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Vrede too
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Re: Whitewashing Congressional Voting Records

Unread post by Vrede too » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:06 pm

Bastards.
Speaking of Rudy, WTF?

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O Really
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Re: Whitewashing Congressional Voting Records

Unread post by O Really » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:39 pm

Wait, if you guys are opposed to Section 702 (or the whole FISA, whatever), and the Hannity faction is outraged at the abuse and loss of 4th Amendment rights, yada, then who is in favor? And has anybody other than me read the actual content of 702? I'm pretty sure Hannity hasn't.

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Vrede too
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Re: Whitewashing Congressional Voting Records

Unread post by Vrede too » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:15 pm

O Really wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:39 pm
Wait, if you guys are opposed to Section 702 (or the whole FISA, whatever), and the Hannity faction is outraged at the abuse and loss of 4th Amendment rights, yada, then who is in favor? And has anybody other than me read the actual content of 702? I'm pretty sure Hannity hasn't.
The Hannity smear won't work on me - even a broken clock. How much do YOU trust POSPOTUS, Sessions, Admiral Michael S. Rogers, Dan Coats and Jim Mattis? Why would I want to read it when all of these experts have weighed in against 702?

Defending Rights and Dissent
https://rightsanddissent.salsalabs.org/ ... index.html

CREDO Action
https://act.credoaction.com/sign/USA-rights

Electronic Frontier Foundation
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/10/u ... nsa-spying

Sen. Wyden, Ron [D-OR]
https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-con ... -bill/1997

Demand Progress (and a whole bunch of cosponsoring groups)
https://dontlettrumpspyonus.com/

ACLU
https://www.aclu.org/issues/national-se ... n-702-fisa
Speaking of Rudy, WTF?

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rstrong
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Re: Whitewashing Congressional Voting Records

Unread post by rstrong » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:57 pm

BTW, I didn't create the thread to be about Section 702. It's about folks in Congress grandstanding on one side of an issue - for use in the next election - before voting on the other side.

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O Really
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Re: Whitewashing Congressional Voting Records

Unread post by O Really » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:00 pm

I don't trust any of those guys, of course. But they have control of a lot more dangerous things than NSA and there's no practical way to keep them away other than electing different people. The strongest objections to 702 are based not on what it says, but on an assumption that it will be significantly abused to the detriment of law-abiding US citizens. Maybe that assumption is accurate. But the reasoning behind the objections is the same as the anti-gun people who say that since some criminals will ignore gun laws that there's no point in passing any.

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Vrede too
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Re: Whitewashing Congressional Voting Records

Unread post by Vrede too » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:28 pm

rstrong wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:57 pm
BTW, I didn't create the thread to be about Section 702....
We have one of those, too:
http://www.blueridgedebate.com/viewtopi ... start=1760

O Really wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:00 pm
I don't trust any of those guys, of course. But they have control of a lot more dangerous things than NSA and there's no practical way to keep them away other than electing different people. The strongest objections to 702 are based not on what it says, but on an assumption that it will be significantly abused to the detriment of law-abiding US citizens. Maybe that assumption is accurate. But the reasoning behind the objections is the same as the anti-gun people who say that since some criminals will ignore gun laws that there's no point in passing any.
I think you mean 'the pro-gun people' and it's not the same reasoning.

We know for a fact that homes, states and comparable nations with fewer guns and/or stricter gun control have less gun violence and lower homicide rates.

We also know for a fact that government uses surveillance powers and abilities for intrusive and repressive purposes, that we have a wannabe neofascist government and that electing different people will take awhile.

Strike 2 after "Hannity". You're slipping.
Speaking of Rudy, WTF?

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Re: Whitewashing Congressional Voting Records

Unread post by O Really » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:58 pm

Yes, the "gun nuts." Sorry. But I didn't claim their reasoning was sound - quite the opposite. But that's what they say: "bad people won't comply - therefore we don't want laws." Some people will abuse a surveillance law - therefore we don't want any.

I really don't think you could write a law regarding how, when, and under what circumstances you could surveil foreign people in foreign countries and not run some risk of catching some citizens accidentally or on purpose. I would favor requiring a warrant to view the communications from citizens collected "incidentally" but nobody would believe that they hadn't already been viewed (else how would you know they're valuable enough for a warrant?). Or that the warrants issued weren't just rubber-stamped. Or that the probable cause used for the warrant wasn't bogus. Or that the communication wasn't even "incidental" after all, but was unlawfully collected. Or any other number of spooks under the bed.

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Re: Whitewashing Congressional Voting Records

Unread post by O Really » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:58 pm

rstrong wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:57 pm
BTW, I didn't create the thread to be about Section 702. It's about folks in Congress grandstanding on one side of an issue - for use in the next election - before voting on the other side.
Sorry - my fault. I got carried away and tempted Vrede.

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Re: Whitewashing Congressional Voting Records

Unread post by Vrede too » Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:06 pm

O Really wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:58 pm
Yes, the "gun nuts." Sorry. But I didn't claim their reasoning was sound - quite the opposite. But that's what they say: "bad people won't comply - therefore we don't want laws." Some people will abuse a surveillance law - therefore we don't want any.

I really don't think you could write a law regarding how, when, and under what circumstances you could surveil foreign people in foreign countries and not run some risk of catching some citizens accidentally or on purpose. I would favor requiring a warrant to view the communications from citizens collected "incidentally" but nobody would believe that they hadn't already been viewed (else how would you know they're valuable enough for a warrant?). Or that the warrants issued weren't just rubber-stamped. Or that the probable cause used for the warrant wasn't bogus. Or that the communication wasn't even "incidental" after all, but was unlawfully collected. Or any other number of spooks under the bed.
True, but we can choose how strong to make the impediments to and penalties for bad behavior.

I think minimizing the risks is a nonstarter. To me, the only potential counter argument is that the threats are so great and that the only way to address them is by removing 4th Amendment protections from Americans.
Speaking of Rudy, WTF?

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Re: Whitewashing Congressional Voting Records

Unread post by billy.pilgrim » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:27 am

rstrong wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:57 pm
BTW, I didn't create the thread to be about Section 702. It's about folks in Congress grandstanding on one side of an issue - for use in the next election - before voting on the other side.
And media grandstanding. During the lil cheney/bush administration all the foxies laughed at anyone opposed. Their talking points included that those opposed must be hiding something.
George Carlin said “The owners know the truth. It’s called the American dream because you have to be asleep to believe it.”

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Re: Whitewashing Congressional Voting Records

Unread post by O Really » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:59 am

The thing is, bills get voted on numerous times with various tweaks and amendments. That, IMNVHO, is a large part of the problem overall. A proposed bill should be limited to one topic and to amendments directly and specifically related to that topic. It's ridiculous to allow unrelated crap to be tagged onto a bill.

But what that does is to make the vote camouflaging much easier. It really is possible to be "against it before I was for it" or vice versa. Everything about the political process has become total smoke and mirrors, with no substance. Not starting with Trump, but made much worse.

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Re: Whitewashing Congressional Voting Records

Unread post by GoCubsGo » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:15 am

rstrong wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:57 pm
BTW, I didn't create the thread to be about Section 702. It's about folks in Congress grandstanding on one side of an issue - for use in the next election - before voting on the other side.
You give the American voter way to much credit. By November, FISA, the shutdown, CHIP etc. will be in the rearview mirror and forgotten, then we will once again be subjected to the slogan/soundbight of the moment.
Last edited by GoCubsGo on Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Whitewashing Congressional Voting Records

Unread post by Vrede too » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:45 am

GoCubsGo wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:15 am
You give the American voter way to much credit. By November, FICA, the shutdown, CHIP etc. will be in the rearview mirror and forgotten, then we will once again be subjected to the slogan/soundbight of the moment.
True in general, but the flip-flopping does make it more difficult for civil liberties groups (in this instance) to target a Feinstein (for example) in their elections comms to members.
Speaking of Rudy, WTF?

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Re: Whitewashing Congressional Voting Records

Unread post by Vrede too » Wed Jan 24, 2018 1:16 pm

rstrong wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:52 am
Yesterday the Senate officially voted to renew and expand Section 702, handing Trump six more years of warrantless spying on Americans.

Senator Jeff Flake voted for cloture, helping to prevent any debate on such surveillance, and blocking any amendments. But then just hours later he went on the Senate floor to compare Trump to Stalin, and warn that American democracy may not survive.

Senator Dianne Feinstein introduced a last-minute amendment that would have required a warrant to search the data collected under 702. But then within an hour or so, she voted to block that amendment from even being voted on. And then voted to continue and expand surveillance.

Etc., etc. etc.

Any bets on which of the contradictory actions they'll be campaigning on in the next election cycle?
More on that:

It Wasn’t Just Republicans — Democrats Also Voted to Shut Down Debate on Trump Administration’s Surveillance Powers
Speaking of Rudy, WTF?

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