Immigration

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Vrede too
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Re: Immigration

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O Really wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:59 pm
The power of de-humanization is great.
Make people remember MS-13 or nameless faceless people in immigrant camps and they'll forget about Carlos who has skillfully and faithfully tended their yard, picked their apples and veggies, installed their drywall and rock walkways, as well as their Hispanic-heritage accountants, lawyers, doctors and pharmacists. Not to mention half of major league baseball.
Sadly, it's always been far too easy to wind up a sizeable chunk of America with fear and hatred, usually of relatively weak groups, by appealing to their perpetual victim need to blame others for their own inadequacies.
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire

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O Really
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Re: Immigration

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First Nation People
Black enslaved people
Irish, Chinese
"Krauts"
"Japs"
"Gooks"
Mexicans
Non-enslaved black people
"Welfare Queens"
"Indians"

Never ending circle.

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1 CAT FAN
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Re: Immigration

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Yep, Independents are always hanging their heads, clinching to the coat tails of liberals.

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Vrede too
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Re: Immigration

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O Really wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 5:46 pm
First Nation People
Black enslaved people
Irish, Chinese
"Krauts"
"Japs"
"Gooks"
Mexicans
Non-enslaved black people
"Welfare Queens"
"Indians"

Never ending circle.
Women
Catholics
Mormons
JEWS!

Californians :D
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire

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billy.pilgrim
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Re: Immigration

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Don't forget liberals from Alabama

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O Really
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Re: Immigration

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What happened to the Mormons? If they were run off to some remote reservation, they made pretty nice state for themselves.

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Vrede too
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Re: Immigration

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O Really wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:07 pm
What happened to the Mormons? If they were run off to some remote reservation, they made pretty nice state for themselves.
It sometimes works out okay for persecuted groups, eventually. Whether they deserved the persecution at the time is a different discussion :D , but they are still accused of not being "real Christians" by other fundy Christians.
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire

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Re: Immigration

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Similar to Independents, John Smith made a decision to do his own thing, it hasn't worked out that well for him either.

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O Really
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Re: Immigration

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Vrede too wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:13 pm
... but they are still accused of not being "real Christians" by other fundy Christians.
That doesn't count. Everybody is accused of not being "real Christians" if they don't follow the narrow set of requirements within a given church, even for other churches that are nominally in the same denomination.

Anyway, I'm less sympathetic about some group being abused because of their voluntary choices than about those abused for things they can't help like nationality, ethnicity, etc.

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Vrede too
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Re: Immigration

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O Really wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:45 pm
That doesn't count. Everybody is accused of not being "real Christians" if they don't follow the narrow set of requirements within a given church, even for other churches that are nominally in the same denomination.
I meant it more as a holdover from historic discrimination than as crying for them now.
Anyway, I'm less sympathetic about some group being abused because of their voluntary choices than about those abused for things they can't help like nationality, ethnicity, etc.
Isn't all religion a choice? Assuming they're not harming others, are the newish religion Mormons any different from ancient religion Jews?
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire

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Re: Immigration

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Canada's Immigration System Deeply Flawed

Canada would do well to imitate the US tizzy. As the United States tries to figure out how terrorists got in and why those with clear terrorist connections weren't tracked, Canada ignores deeper problems on this side of the border.
On a per capita basis, Canada accepts six times as many refugees as the United States and four times the average among members of the Convention on Refugees. This is because Canada’s open welfare system attracts more applicants and because of Canada’s high acceptance rate (46 per cent). The United States accepts 21 per cent. Other large refugee-accepting nations receive an average of 15 per cent. This is not because other nations are turning away legitimate refugees but because Canada’s system can’t distinguish between legitimate refugees and fraud.
In any event, no hardly means no. Refugee appeals take years, costing taxpayers much treasure in welfare and legal bills. Mohammed Issa Mohammed cost Canadian taxpayers $3 million in legal costs alone. He entered Canada on a visa and was ordered deported after being identified as a terrorist. He claimed refugee status and launched 40 appeals over 15 years, while being supported, with his family, by welfare and other social payments.
Consider Ahmed Ressam. He claimed refugee status in Canada in 1994, failed to show up for his hearing, and thus was ordered deported. He remained in Canada, acquired a criminal record, associated with terrorists, visited Afghanistan for training, returned to Canada, fraudulently acquired a Canadian passport, and began assembling explosives. A wary US customs agent arrested him trying to enter the United States in 1999 with a carload of explosives bound for the Los Angeles airport.

Ressam is hardly unique. Citizenship Canada can’t find 27,000 fake refugees who have been ordered deported.

Some Canadians remain unconcerned about our security problems. Terrorists target the United States not Canada, they argue. Yet, it’s as morally wrong to stand aside for a terrorist attack as it would be to stand aside for murder. Terrorism is mass murder.

Canadian self-interest is also involved. If terrorists with Canadian connections attack the United States, the United States would shut down the border and cut off trade until it felt secure again. This would devastate Canada’s economy, a third of which depends on US trade.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/article ... ply-flawed

Interesting article.

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Vrede too
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Re: Immigration

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Trump tests a love-it-or-leave-it campaign message

:angry-banghead: POSPOTUS and his ovine fanboys were screeching that America wasn’t already “Great” for a year and a half. Why didn’t they leave?

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I knew that tweet was the beginning of his campaign. So the chant will now be “send her back” instead of “lock her up”. So reminiscent of 1930’s Germany.
Back in the Vietnam era antiwar protestors and draft dodgers were told to love it or leave it. Strikes me as funny that a draft dodger is bringing back the old saying.
Trump's cult will cheer at literally anything he says. These rallies are basically echo chambers.
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire

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O Really
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Re: Immigration

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Vrede too wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:02 pm
O Really wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:45 pm
That doesn't count. Everybody is accused of not being "real Christians" if they don't follow the narrow set of requirements within a given church, even for other churches that are nominally in the same denomination.
I meant it more as a holdover from historic discrimination than as crying for them now.
Anyway, I'm less sympathetic about some group being abused because of their voluntary choices than about those abused for things they can't help like nationality, ethnicity, etc.
Isn't all religion a choice? Assuming they're not harming others, are the newish religion Mormons any different from ancient religion Jews?
Yes, all religion is a choice. but "the Jewish" are an ethnicity as well as a religion.

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O Really
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Re: Immigration

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Vrede too
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Re: Immigration

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Yeah, and all of the poor.
O Really wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 12:20 am
Yes, all religion is a choice. but "the Jewish" are an ethnicity as well as a religion.
Jared gets more sympathy than Ivanka? If they weren't both filthy rich assholes undeserving of any sympathy, that is.
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire

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Re: Immigration

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Canada’s current immigration system is deeply flawed. Instead of denial, Canada needs a vigorous debate.
Prospects for reform seem dismal. - Fred McMahon

“It is increasingly doubtful whether our elected officials can regain control of the system. - Martin Collacott

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Re: Immigration

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"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire

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O Really
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Re: Immigration

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I don't know why the Republicans are so much better at persuasive propaganda than the Dems. Can't the Dems hire any creative communications people? Republicans can hit a theme with a neat catch phrase or slogan, get Faux to spread it and everybody says it. Nevermind if it's nowhere close to reality. Other than it's a really low-life thing for a President* (even with an asterisk) to do, I don't care too much about the "lock her up - send her back" chants at the rallies. Those are all true believers anyway. But now the Republican theme is to claim Dems advocate "Open borders," with the implication that Dems want no restrictions, no security, no barriers, no screening. They imply that if a person opposes Trump's "wall" that they favor letting in MS-13 members unchecked. They make a concern for humane treatment for those seeking asylum equivalent to giving everyone a free apartment with room service and a shopping trip to Nordstrom. And it works. Good propaganda trumps truth practically every time.

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Vrede too
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Re: Immigration

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O Really wrote:
Thu Jul 18, 2019 11:47 am
I don't know why the Republicans are so much better at persuasive propaganda than the Dems. Can't the Dems hire any creative communications people? Republicans can hit a theme with a neat catch phrase or slogan, get Faux to spread it and everybody says it. Nevermind if it's nowhere close to reality....
It's not a transferable tactic. Dems would not tolerate originating such ugly, simplistic duplicity, and those that might vote Dem are not so gullible, stupid, easily frightened and hateful. Do you see yourself ever chanting a lefty equivalent of, "Send her back!"? These are a couple of the reasons that we are on the left in the first place, and we have to hope we can eventually win without becoming like them.

That said, the Dems could do better at PR. The only ones that currently have a discernible agenda are the Warrens and AOCs. Agree with the progressives or not, there's no easy way to say where the rest of the timid Dems stand other than being No Trumpers.

Take just this issue, immigration. Condemning Repug torture and child abuse is righteous, but where's the Dem message extolling all immigrants, and the plan for fixing current problems? Never mind that no plan will pass at the moment, it's important to have one and then do the hard work of getting others to believe in it. The Repugs' send 'em back/build a wall is wholly unrealistic, but it is a plan that we all know.

Science has proven that conservatives are much more likely to be snowflakes.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/ins ... divisions/

Liberals Don’t Share or Believe Fake News As Much As Right-Wingers, Study Finds
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/liberals-don- ... 37137.html (article)
Polarization, Partisanship and Junk News Consumption over Social Media in the US
http://comprop.oii.ox.ac.uk/wp-content/ ... nkNews.pdf (study)

Do Racism, Conservatism, and Low I.Q. Go Hand in Hand?
Lower cognitive abilities predict greater prejudice through right-wing ideology.
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog ... nd-in-hand

Conservative Syndrome could help explain link between religiosity and lower intelligence
https://www.psypost.org/2018/06/conserv ... ence-51589

Low IQ & Conservative Beliefs Linked to Prejudice
https://www.livescience.com/18132-intel ... acism.html
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire

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O Really
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Re: Immigration

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OK, so why can't we come up with something the right-wingers would fall for? They're susceptible to disinformation. Let's give them some. Sure, I'd prefer a well-articulated platform that addresses significant issues, but I'm not sure that approach is viable anymore. In an electorate that can produce Trump, whether or not he got an actual majority, I think it's going to take flash and shiny objects. Hopefully some substance behind it, but I don't think the substance will win by itself.

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