Afghanistan

Generally an unmoderated forum for discussion of pretty much any topic. The focus however, is usually politics.
Post Reply
User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 30914
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by Vrede too »

billy.pilgrim wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 4:33 pm
GoCubsGo wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 1:56 pm
O Really wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:30 am
neoplacebo wrote:
Sun Oct 06, 2019 11:20 am
Yeah, looks like the military historians would have come out twenty years ago and said to the Generals and Admirals "man, I wouldn't do that shit if I was you" and pointed out that every entry into that place from Alexander the Great on down has met failure.
Oh, they did - and were summarily ignored.
Always wondered if Gore would have ignored the intelligence warnings like Shrub.
I always like to imagine that Gore would have been able to tell the difference between Afghanistan and Al-Qaeda and sent in a couple hundred special ops to deal with the major players.
Powerful essay:
We Have Just Been Handed the Pentagon Papers of Our Generation
The Afghanistan Papers are a devastating indictment of our military and political leaders. The question is: Will anyone notice?


… Earlier this week, we learned that our leaders also knew the war was a fiasco, doomed to fail. But, unlike many of us, they chose not to speak out. Instead, as The Washington Post revealed in a series of stunning articles based on what it has labeled the Afghanistan Papers—a trove of previously classified documents that it is calling a “secret history of the war”—dozens of consecutive generals and senior US officials had repeatedly lied about, omitted, and obfuscated the facts to give an illusion of progress in that war.

Examples abound. As early as 2003, Bush’s hawkish secretary of defense, Donald Rumsfeld, apparently admitted, “I have no visibility into who the bad guys are” in Afghanistan. More than a decade later, during the late Obama years, retired Army Lt. Gen. Doug Lute (once the Afghan War “czar”), conceded to one of the interviewers, “We didn’t have the foggiest notion of what we were undertaking.” Perhaps even more troubling, in a throwback to Vietnam War–era stat-fudging, one unnamed army colonel confessed, “Every data point was altered to present the best picture possible.”

… In a real republic, these papers would be explosive, triggering investigations, denunciations, and serious policy conversations. The Senate would hold a lengthy inquest, such as the Fulbright hearings on Vietnam or the Church Committee on CIA abuses, in addition to producing substantive reports similar to the 9/11 commission or the McCain/Feinstein CIA torture report. But I’m skeptical. If this Afghan disclosure doesn’t generate thorough investigation and accountability, can the concerned citizenry ever again count on Congress? Probably not.

The same question might be asked of our news media. Major publications still give prominent placement to the vacuous mea culpas from prominent Afghan war commanders, like David Petraeus, and the big three cable networks offer unlimited time to the should-be-discredited likes of Petraeus, Stanley McChrystal, and a litany of other Bush/Obama-era military and intelligence officials. Meanwhile, folks like myself, Scott Horton, Matthew Hoh, retired colonels Andrew Bacevich, and Daniel Davis—who were right all along about the war in Afghanistan—struggle mightily to place a rare column in the major newspapers. The game is rigged.

… Long ago, after the insane, absurd advice he received from his senior military advisers in the Bay of Pigs and Cuban missile crisis fiascos, President John F. Kennedy, himself a decorated World War II veteran, wisely concluded, “The first thing I’m going to tell my successor, is watch the generals, to avoid feeling that just because they’re military men, their opinions on military matters are worth a damn.”

I, for one, will be hard-pressed to ever trust them again. Much of the blood of a war that shouldn’t have been fought, and that they might have stopped, lies on their hands.

Major Danny Sjursen is a US Army strategist and former history instructor at West Point. He served tours with reconnaissance units in Iraq and Afghanistan. NOTE: The views expressed in this article are those of the author in an unofficial capacity and do not reflect the official policy or position of the Command and General Staff College, Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the US government.
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire
1312.

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 30914
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by Vrede too »

"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire
1312.

User avatar
billy.pilgrim
Vice admiral
Posts: 10106
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:44 pm

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by billy.pilgrim »

the essay title asks if anyone will listen. It might be better to ask how many applaud torture and all those who have run for office on it.

tune in next week and see what new a creative torture technique Kiefer uses to save merica,

(maybe 24 was a good show - I never watched. the commercials looked like the show was meant to justify and soften the ugliness of torture)
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.

Upton Sinclair

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 30914
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by Vrede too »

billy.pilgrim wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:11 pm
the essay title asks if anyone will listen. It might be better to ask how many applaud torture and all those who have run for office on it.

I see very few mentions of the Afghanistan Papers anywhere :( .

tune in next week and see what new a creative torture technique Kiefer uses to save merica,

(maybe 24 was a good show - I never watched. the commercials looked like the show was meant to justify and soften the ugliness of torture)

It sure was popular, but I never watched it for the same reason. I also quit watching NCIS: New Orleans 2-3 years ago largely because of the torture, and wrote CBS about it. Never got a reply.
There are different measures of the intensity of a war. One of them is the number of bombs dropped. When would you guess that we dropped the most bombs on Afghanistan?
Spoiler:
Image
https://www.statista.com/chart/16079/we ... ghanistan/

Surprises me, and I think that I've followed the conflict fairly closely.

Note: I don't know why the graph begins in 2006. We've been there since 2001. I'd guess that 2019 is still the record, but can't say that for sure.
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire
1312.

User avatar
billy.pilgrim
Vice admiral
Posts: 10106
Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2012 1:44 pm

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by billy.pilgrim »

Vrede too wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:20 pm
billy.pilgrim wrote:
Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:11 pm
the essay title asks if anyone will listen. It might be better to ask how many applaud torture and all those who have run for office on it.

I see very few mentions of the Afghanistan Papers anywhere :( .

tune in next week and see what new a creative torture technique Kiefer uses to save merica,

(maybe 24 was a good show - I never watched. the commercials looked like the show was meant to justify and soften the ugliness of torture)

It sure was popular, but I never watched it for the same reason. I also quit watching NCIS: New Orleans 2-3 years ago largely because of the torture, and wrote CBS about it. Never got a reply.
There are different measures of the intensity of a war. One of them is the number of bombs dropped. When would you guess that we dropped the most bombs on Afghanistan?
Spoiler:
Image
https://www.statista.com/chart/16079/we ... ghanistan/

Surprises me, and I think that I've followed the conflict fairly closely.

Note: I don't know why the graph begins in 2006. We've been there since 2001. I'd guess that 2019 is still the record, but can't say that for sure.
Bulkshit graph - wanna bet?
Fox does that

Just leave out the part of the chart that doesn't fit the narrative
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it.

Upton Sinclair

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 30914
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by Vrede too »

billy.pilgrim wrote:
Mon Mar 30, 2020 2:27 pm
Bulkshit graph - wanna bet?
Fox does that

Just leave out the part of the chart that doesn't fit the narrative
:?: I have not known Statista to be biased. It's German and Wiki doesn't cite any controversies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statista
The article was linked to me by United for Peace and Justice (UFPJ).
Spoiler:
It sure doesn't spare PINO from appearing to be the most bloodthirsty, and I can think of other reasons besides political bias, like space or current relevance, for omitting most of the Shrub admin.
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire
1312.

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 30914
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by Vrede too »

"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire
1312.

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 30914
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by Vrede too »

1 CAT FAN wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:02 pm
1 CAT FAN wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:28 pm
Was it cruel and unjust when the Seal Team blew Bin Laden's head off...
billy.pilgrim wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 5:54 pm
No.
And it could have been so simple without all the for profit wars they tricked you into supporting
Vrede too wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:57 pm
No. However, the CIA's use of a fake vaccine program to find him has ensured the ongoing deaths of thousands or tens of thousands of the children of newly distrustful parents, all in order to get a single old, isolated, impotent terrorist.
All the 9/11 American families of the slain victims appreciate your condolences, support.
All the 9/11 American families of the slain victims are embarrassed by your citing them while cowering from the points that billy.pilgrim and I made, wimp. Clearly, you're turned on by dead children. Ick.
Vrede too wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:09 pm
Does "No" have too many syllables for you?

Got it. Pay for innocent orphaned children with many, many times more innocent sick and dead children. You are more of an ovine fan of Obama than I am. Too bad that Shrub screwed up so badly, it never would have been left to Obama to handle.
CIA's fake inoculation cover before bin Laden killing led to vaccine drop-off in Pakistan, new report says

Shame on Obama, not for killing ObL but for the way he went about it.
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire
1312.

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 30914
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by Vrede too »

2 police officers protecting Pakistan polio team shot dead

... Pakistani militants often target polio teams and police assigned to protect them claiming the vaccination campaigns are a Western conspiracy to sterilize children.

Pakistan and neighboring Afghanistan are the only two remaining countries in the world where polio is endemic, after Nigeria was last year declared free of the virus.
Thanks, Obama.
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire
1312.

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 30914
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by Vrede too »

Report: Pentagon considering use of warplanes, drones if Afghan forces are in crisis

This will go on for about 2 years. Then, there are detailed plans for a helicopter evacuation of US personnel and Afghan collaborators from the US embassy roof.

Image
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire
1312.

User avatar
neoplacebo
Admiral of the Fleet
Posts: 7843
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:42 pm
Location: Kingsport TN

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by neoplacebo »

Shit. It looks like another case of peace with honorable mention.

User avatar
neoplacebo
Admiral of the Fleet
Posts: 7843
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:42 pm
Location: Kingsport TN

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by neoplacebo »

Vrede too wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:23 am
2 police officers protecting Pakistan polio team shot dead

... Pakistani militants often target polio teams and police assigned to protect them claiming the vaccination campaigns are a Western conspiracy to sterilize children.

Pakistan and neighboring Afghanistan are the only two remaining countries in the world where polio is endemic, after Nigeria was last year declared free of the virus.
Thanks, Obama.
You blame Obama for primitive people believing primitive things? I am aware that the CIA had sometime in the past conducted some sort of bogus or fake vaccination program somewhere over there. Did Obama dream up such an operation or even approve of it or authorize it? Did anybody die because of it? At first I thought all this was about the polo teams. I suspect they will also soon be wiped out. Thanks, Carter.

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 30914
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by Vrede too »

neoplacebo wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:50 pm
You blame Obama for primitive people believing primitive things? I am aware that the CIA had sometime in the past conducted some sort of bogus or fake vaccination program somewhere over there. Did Obama dream up such an operation or even approve of it or authorize it? Did anybody die because of it?
No more "primitive" than our anti-vaxxers, and with better reason for their beliefs. It's well known in Pakistan and accurate that the CIA under Obama used a fake vaccination program to confirm the location of ObL. This has ensured the ongoing deaths of thousands or tens of thousands of the children of newly distrustful parents, all in order to kill a single old, sick, isolated, impotent terrorist. Shame on us.
At first I thought all this was about the polo teams. I suspect they will also soon be wiped out. Thanks, Carter.
Yeah, I first read "polo team", too. :confusion-scratchheadblue: :lol:
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire
1312.

User avatar
O Really
Vice admiral
Posts: 14574
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:37 pm

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by O Really »

I was going to send the post to "Dumb Headlines." I knew Pakistan has a Polo team - never heard of a Polio team.
Maybe the Polio team rides wheel chairs instead of horses. (awful, yeah, I know)

Image

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 30914
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by Vrede too »

O Really wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:17 pm
I was going to send the post to "Dumb Headlines." I knew Pakistan has a Polo team - never heard of a Polio team.
Maybe the Polio team rides wheel chairs instead of horses. (awful, yeah, I know)
:D , but why wouldn't they just ride horses, too? ;)

Playing Polio At Roosevelt Warm Springs Institute for Rehabilitation:
Image
"One day Dr. Guttmann and 'Q' took themselves off to an empty ward, and using shortened walking sticks for mallets and a wooden disc for a ball experimented with a type of wheelchair polo. He decided that this should become a team game, its proving to be a stimulating if somewhat rough sport, particularly for local footballers or physiotherapy staff against whom our team pitted their skill. Surveying the carnage after a particularly boisterous match, Guttmann decided that polo should give way to netball and later to basket ball." Joan, administrator

Image
Vancouver, BC:

Wheelchair Floorball at the Roundhouse

Image

Okay, next year you have to go to a game and tell us how it was. :P
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire
1312.

User avatar
O Really
Vice admiral
Posts: 14574
Joined: Tue Sep 18, 2012 3:37 pm

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by O Really »

Nobody in the US probably thinks about polio too much since it's been gone for decades, but for geezers the age of most of us, we all would have known some who got the awful disease. It wasn't unusual at all for a kid to have a shortened leg, withered arm, wear leg braces, and maybe even an iron lung. When the vaccine came out, everybody got it. As far as I know, there weren't any anti-vaxxers unless they were way back in the wilds of Idaho or somewhere.

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 30914
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by Vrede too »

O Really wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:03 pm
Nobody in the US probably thinks about polio too much since it's been gone for decades, but for geezers the age of most of us, we all would have known some who got the awful disease. It wasn't unusual at all for a kid to have a shortened leg, withered arm, wear leg braces, and maybe even an iron lung. When the vaccine came out, everybody got it. As far as I know, there weren't any anti-vaxxers unless they were way back in the wilds of Idaho or somewhere.
Anti-vax history goes way back for various reasons.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccine_hesitancy
In modern times:
Later vaccines and antitoxins

... In 1955, in a tragedy known as the Cutter incident, Cutter Laboratories produced 120,000 doses of the Salk polio vaccine that inadvertently contained some live poliovirus along with inactivated virus. This vaccine caused 40,000 cases of polio, 53 cases of paralysis, and five deaths. The disease spread through the recipients' families, creating a polio epidemic that led to a further 113 cases of paralytic polio and another five deaths. It was one of the worst pharmaceutical disasters in US history
Before I was born, and I don't remember hearing about it.
Later 20th-century events included the 1982 broadcast of DPT: Vaccine Roulette, which sparked debate over the DPT vaccine,
That's why I looked it up. I don't remember anti-vaxxers until the 1980s.
and the 1998 publication of a fraudulent academic article by Andrew Wakefield which sparked the MMR vaccine controversy.
Asshole.
Also recently, the HPV vaccine has become controversial due to concerns that it may encourage promiscuity when given to 11- and 12-year-old girls.
:wtf:
Arguments against vaccines in the 21st century are often similar to those of 19th-century anti-vaccinationists.
Religion, science ignorance. :roll:
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire
1312.

User avatar
neoplacebo
Admiral of the Fleet
Posts: 7843
Joined: Mon Sep 17, 2012 1:42 pm
Location: Kingsport TN

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by neoplacebo »

O Really wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:03 pm
Nobody in the US probably thinks about polio too much since it's been gone for decades, but for geezers the age of most of us, we all would have known some who got the awful disease. It wasn't unusual at all for a kid to have a shortened leg, withered arm, wear leg braces, and maybe even an iron lung. When the vaccine came out, everybody got it. As far as I know, there weren't any anti-vaxxers unless they were way back in the wilds of Idaho or somewhere.
I can remember two or three kids from elementary school who may have been afflicted......one boy had a leg brace on one leg and a girl had two leg braces and another boy had a wobbly walk because of one leg being shorter. No idea if any of those kids had polio; back then it was "proper" to just ignore such things but I can remember being thankful that I was, at that time, normal. Within ten years I would embark on a path that could best be described as the opposite of straight and narrow. Alas, I chose the crooked and wide path and have been staggering along it from one side to the other ever since.

User avatar
Vrede too
Superstar Cultmaster
Posts: 30914
Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2015 11:46 am
Location: Hendersonville, NC

Re: Afghanistan

Unread post by Vrede too »

O Really wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 5:03 pm
Nobody in the US probably thinks about polio too much since it's been gone for decades, but for geezers the age of most of us, we all would have known some who got the awful disease. It wasn't unusual at all for a kid to have a shortened leg, withered arm, wear leg braces, and maybe even an iron lung. When the vaccine came out, everybody got it. As far as I know, there weren't any anti-vaxxers unless they were way back in the wilds of Idaho or somewhere.
Tonight:
American Experience
The Polio Crusade

Season 21, Episode 2
9:00 PM - 10:00 PM ET ON PBS • TV-PG • Stereo • CC • DVS

Personal accounts from polio survivors about the disease that paralyzed thousands before Jonas Salk introduces a vaccine to guard against it.
"When you can make people believe absurdities, you can make them commit atrocities."
-- Voltaire
1312.

User avatar
Ulysses
Captain
Posts: 4261
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2018 11:57 pm
Location: FUBAR

Polio

Unread post by Ulysses »

I well remember seeing some kids in leg braces back in the 50's.

I also remember standing in line by a door in the basement of the town hall to receive my little cup of sugar water and vaccine.

I also remember the March of Dimes campaigns to help fund vaccination drives.

Today I live next door to a more elderly couple. Been living beside them for the past 24 years. The husband often had a minor problem walking, I didn't ask why. But about five years ago I found out his condition had deteriorated from needing a cane to needing crutches and why: what's called "post-polio". Apparently the virus damaged nerves back when he had polio earlier in life, and eventually those nerves deteriorate. Today the only way he gets around is in a wheelchair. It's so hard on his wife. I do what I can for them, helping with the weekly garbage cans etc. They also have an adult daughter who comes by to help, as well at least one visit a week from a therapist. Lucky for him he had very good health insurance from his earlier employment. Joe is a really nice man, wouldn't hurt a fly.

So polio is awful. Even if one has recovered, its damage may put you in a wheel chair later in life.

Funny nobody complained back then about having to take the polio vaccine, even though a screw up in one vaccine lab led to a small spate of polio infections from the insufficiently inactivated virus. Contrast that to the morons today who refuse to get covid vaccine, for all sorts of imagined side effects, like turning into a human magnet. (!)

If I'm not mistaken, back in the day, one of the primary causes of polio infection was from contaminated water supplies.

Post Reply