israel determined to start war

[Bungalow Bill]

I don't think Jews were routinely massacred every few years in the Muslim countries
of the Middle East. That they were second or third class citizens is certainly true. In
its ferocity and number of people killed, the Holocaust was pretty much a stand alone
event, far beyond the pogroms in Russia, not to diminish the latter. Anit-Semitism has
a long history in Europe, but there was nothing that had gone on before to compare to
the Holocaust.

[rstrong]

I don't think Jews were routinely massacred every few years in the Muslim countries
of the Middle East. That they were second or third class citizens is certainly true. In
its ferocity and number of people killed, the Holocaust was pretty much a stand alone
event, far beyond the pogroms in Russia, not to diminish the latter. Anit-Semitism has
a long history in Europe, but there was nothing that had gone on before to compare to
the Holocaust.

The Holocaust was the largest, and the Russian pogroms a couple decades earlier killed a couple hundred thousand.

Now look at all the pogroms of a few tens of people to a few thousands. Yes, Jews were indeed routinely massacred every few years in Muslim countries and in Europe, from medieval times right into the mid-20th century.

From the onset of the 1948 Arab–Israeli War until the early 1970s, 800,000–1,000,000 Jews left, fled, or were expelled from their homes in Arab countries. By the Yom Kippur War of 1973, most of the Jewish communities throughout the Arab World, as well as Pakistan and Afghanistan, were practically non-existent. Add to that the Jews that fled Europe, the ones who survived the Holocaust and the other pogroms before and after.

Take a look at this table, Jewish population in Arab countries, 1948–2008.

If someone wants to resubmit the suggestion of returning lost lands and properties to the Jews in all those Arab and Muslim countries, be sure to include assurances that Jews will be safe and have full rights there.

[billy.pilgrim]

wow - I hadn't realized that this whole arab/jewish war thing started in 1948

[rstrong]

wow - I hadn't realized that this whole arab/jewish war thing started in 1948

It started long before. But it was the European governments' post-WWII partitioning plans that kicked it into high gear. Not to mention that now you had Jews fleeing Europe also.

Take a look at the link above. Pogroms were regular occurances - killing tens, hundreds and thousands of Jews - long before 1948.

[billy.pilgrim]

wow - I hadn't realized that this whole arab/jewish war thing started in 1948

It started long before. But it was the European governments' post-WWII partitioning plans that kicked it into high gear. Not to mention that now you had Jews fleeing Europe also.

Take a look at the link above. Pogroms were regular occurances - killing tens, hundreds and thousands of Jews - long before 1948.

I know.

My point (facetiously) was that there is a certain religion that doesn't seem to like to play fair with others. granted it keeps coming back and slapping them in the face and much worse, but I'm not sure how much of what's happening to them right now is reaction and not action

being part of the smallest group in the crowd and yelling about how you are the chosen ones and god gave you this and god gave you that, while tyring to prevent interaction or (god forbid) mingling with the unchosen doesn't indicate, to me, someone who has ever tried to just get along

this is not directed toward jewish people but toward the religion that allows them to justify their segregation in the world community

[rstrong]

My point (facetiously) was that there is a certain religion that doesn't seem to like to play fair with others. granted it keeps coming back and slapping them in the face and much worse, but I'm not sure how much of what's happening to them right now is reaction and not action

being part of the smallest group in the crowd and yelling about how you are the chosen ones and god gave you this and god gave you that, while tyring to prevent interaction or (god forbid) mingling with the unchosen doesn't indicate, to me, someone who has ever tried to just get along

In what I've quoted above, it's impossible to tell which religion you refer to.

Granted, the bit about preventing interaction and mingling sounds like Saudi Arabia, which bans people from certain other religions from entering the country, let alone living there. Or other arab countries that have a hissy fit when one of their athletes has to stand near an Israeli athlete at the Olympics.

[...]the religion that allows them to justify their segregation in the world community

Here on the other hand you're definately talking about Islamic states like Iran, Syria, Libya (before this year), Yemen, Pakistan, etc.

I don't see any sign of Israel trying to segregate itself.

[O Really]

They've been at each others throats for many years, but although it's an oversimplification, the main problem now stems from the 1967 war. True, there was no "Palestinian Nation" but there was a large number of Palestinians who had been living in the areas taken over, many of whom never got to return, and among those who are still in those areas, Israeli occupation tends to make their lives miserable. They can't just settle in and live peaceably; they don't see why they have to move off of what was their "homeland" (even if it was officially part of Jordan or Egypt.) Unless Israel is willing to make some accommodation to either (1) give them a space they can live in on their own; or (2) let them have rights of citizens or at least live unmolested in Israeli occupied land, then things aren't going to get better long term.

[billy.pilgrim]

My point (facetiously) was that there is a certain religion that doesn't seem to like to play fair with others. granted it keeps coming back and slapping them in the face and much worse, but I'm not sure how much of what's happening to them right now is reaction and not action

being part of the smallest group in the crowd and yelling about how you are the chosen ones and god gave you this and god gave you that, while tyring to prevent interaction or (god forbid) mingling with the unchosen doesn't indicate, to me, someone who has ever tried to just get along

In what I've quoted above, it's impossible to tell which religion you refer to.

Granted, the bit about preventing interaction and mingling sounds like Saudi Arabia, which bans people from certain other religions from entering the country, let alone living there. Or other arab countries that have a hissy fit when one of their athletes has to stand near an Israeli athlete at the Olympics.

[...]the religion that allows them to justify their segregation in the world community

Here on the other hand you're definately talking about Islamic states like Iran, Syria, Libya (before this year), Yemen, Pakistan, etc.

I don't see any sign of Israel trying to segregate itself.

yeah, religion pretty well screws things up all around but the 3 born in the ME seem to suck above all others when it comes to segregation, war and genocide.

sorry you don't see the day to day discrimination of others by some of the close knit jewish communities right here in this country


at some point some does need to make the apology tour faux makes so much noise about obama having made
healing and progress begin with at the very least, a simple apology. the us or britain or the UN or the jewish world community stole the land israel now occupies - palin and simple

if other countries took land from peaceful jewish people living in their countries - it has to be looked at as a reaction

forming israel out of land occupied by others was the action
and it was the same aggressive action that started all this crap 3,000 years ago by moses the witch doctor


beware kings princes pshaws mullabullas and others wearing funny hats

[neoplacebo]

Ayatollah you so.....

[Bungalow Bill]

I was referring to events in the mid 20th century, not to pogroms from the medieval
period, though they certainly took place. Using that smaller time frame, there doesn't
seem to be a pattern of massacres of Jews every few years in Arab countries. It appears
that many of the expulsions occurred around the time of the Israeli-Arab war of 1948,
when Jews were forced out or decided to leave as a reaction to that war. And many
wound up in Israel, likely to take over the land of the Palestinians who have been
driven out by the Zionists. The Zionists knew they couldn't have a truly Jewish state
if so much of the population were Palestinians, so they had to drive the Palestinians
off their land and out of what was to become Israel, and that's what they did.

The problem started back in the late 19th century when the Zionists thought it would be
a good idea for Jews to return to their former homeland, but the neighborhood had changed.
They were too stupid to realize that, so they pushed ahead anyway. When the Palestinians
proved to be a threat to a truly Jewish state, they were sent packing by any means necessary.
That's why it is not surprising that they are still not wanted by their neighbors, that they now
have nothing but trouble with them, and hopefully will have nothing but more trouble in the
future.

[rstrong]

I don't see any sign of Israel trying to segregate itself.

sorry you don't see the day to day discrimination of others by some of the close knit jewish communities right here in this country

Are you trying to get the Det.Thorn Award for Submoronic Straw-Man Arguements? I never said nor implied any such thing, nor even commented on the issue.

Every major religion has its discriminating close knit orthodox communities. Yes, even in the US. The ability to set up your own ideal discriminating close knit community was one of the major draws for colonists to America.

the us or britain or the UN or the jewish world community stole the land israel now occupies - palin and simple

Let's be honest here: The Europeans stole the land from EVERYONE - Muslim and Jewish alike.

Then they carved it up - Trans-Jordan being exclusively Arab-controlled despite all the Jews living there, and the leftover bit divided into Arab and Jewish areas.

Then the Arabs went to war to take the Jewish areas too - and lost. And they forced hundreds of thousands of Jews out of other Arab countries.

Personally I wish they'd cut Gaza (and parts of the West Bank) loose and annex most of the West Bank.

[billy.pilgrim]

da chosen ones gonna get him fer dat

[Bungalow Bill]

Guess he definitely won't be running for president again.

[Boatrocker]

Kerry backs off Israel 'apartheid' remark

Thought it was a pretty accurate observation, myself.

[Bungalow Bill]

AIPAC must be slowing down. It took a whole day for
Kerry to apologize. Now the tail can wag the dog again.

[neoplacebo]

Saw a video of some Palestinian kids being hit by Israeli air power tonight; they hit this group of kids playing on a beach and one was down; the others began running away, but they got them, too. We paid for this; and I happen to think the American supplied planes and targeting systems are better than that. At what point will we create more enemies than we can handle?

[neoplacebo]

Yeah, we've been creating enemies for ourselves, and paying lots of money to do so, for the last 65 years or so. That's almost three generations. I think we're on a roll.

[O Really]

Want to stop the killing in Gaza? Convince one or the other side to end it. How? Tell the Palestinians that right or wrong, they've lost. They don't have the power to make Israel do anything and they never will. Admit defeat and roll over. Tell Israel that right or wrong, it's the power of the area and has the responsibility to stop being a bully. Leave the Palestinians alone.

Wouldn't work? Right, because nobody really wants to end the fighting. So I'd suggest the rest of the world tells all of them this:
Guys, we've had it with all of you. From now on, you're not getting any money, any resources, and no international trade or travel. Learn to get along, move somewhere else, or kill everybody - we don't care.

[O Really]

Rough figuring: In 3 weeks Gazans have seen die the proportional equivalent of our experiencing 210,000 Americans deaths. That's 70 times 9/11. It's also about half what the US lost in WWII over 3 1/2 years. One big difference - those Americans were almost all soldiers whereas an estimated 80% of the dead Gazans are civilians.

Without doubt Gazans are by far getting the worst of it. Gaza has been over-run, abused, and trampled on for 3-4,000 years by everyone from the Biblical King David to the Brits and beyond. So why do they keep poking a stick in the bear's eye? Because they're scorpions.

[O Really]

I would like to think that I would resist being "over-run, abused, and trampled on" despite long odds of success. I wonder how many contemporaries predicted the success of the American Revolution against the British Empire?

You might, or you might be dead having accomplished nothing.

Well, the Brits wouldn't have predicted it fershure. But the outcome of the American Revolution might have been a bit different if the "Americans" had staked out their position between, say, Brighton and Portsmouth, about 50 miles out of London.