Golf (yeah, golf)

[Vrede too]

It's almost like they think trump has some sort of conscience.

9/11 Families Call on Trump to Cancel Saudi-Backed Golf Event

To be fair, they aren't happy about Joe's visit either, let alone the fist bump. Neither am I.

Yeah, cuz we all know how well making a country a "pariah" works in changing national behaviour. Places like Iran and North Korea have become models of international citizenship since being cut off.

I make a distinction between "pariah" and fist bumping endorsement of the journalist-murdering, genocidal (Yemen) Prince. I'm not entirely sure why this kind of good international PR is so important to autocrats, but it is.

[GoCubsGo]

It's almost like they think trump has some sort of conscience.

9/11 Families Call on Trump to Cancel Saudi-Backed Golf Event

To be fair, they aren't happy about Joe's visit either, let alone the fist bump. Neither am I.

I'm not sure how he should've greeted him but there had to be some sort of acknowledgment. Could've been worse.


Of course the loons conveniently forget about this. Personally I think Biden has it right, there's real issues in the world. This ain't one of them.

[O Really]

A handshake, most everywhere in the world, can signal several things from warm greeting, to acknowledgment of place to agreement, but all generally positive. A bow, salute, curtsey, etc. indicates respect and possibly submission to another, particularly when it's one-way. I'm not fond of the fist bump, but I think it was a good choice in this case. Casual, no formal historical significance (as a handshake would be), but still not a shunning as no greeting would have been. Agreed it's not a significant issue. Of course, in the overall condition of the world, neither is a golf tournament.

[Vrede too]

I have the opposite opinion. I'm more bothered by the fist bump than I would have been by a handshake. I see the latter as being the boring expected formality without much meaning. Otoh, I see a fist bump as more of a bromance common-cause gesture. Certainly, people noticed. It's not like anyone would be saying, "OMG, Joe shook his hand."

I'm not sure how he should've greeted him but there had to be some sort of acknowledgment. Could've been worse.

Of course the loons conveniently forget about this. Personally I think Biden has it right, there's real issues in the world. This ain't one of them.

True, but we also have a responsibility to be consistent. We should hold Biden to the same standard if TRE45ON was wrong:



On the one hand a fist bump is indeed meaningless, but symbolism matters in our world and the real issues are:
9/11
Adnan Khashoggi
Yemen
Women's rights
Support for Islamic extremism and terrorism, etc

I think we should hold the Saudis and Joe to account on these matters.

[GoCubsGo]

Agreed it's not a significant issue. Of course, in the overall condition of the world, neither is a golf tournament.

In the list of symbolic things that aren't important, in my mind the golf tournament ranks above the fist bump as it's overtly pandering to the murderers and human rights abusers and basically saying "all good."

Cons will of course disagree because that's what they do.

[GoCubsGo]

I have the opposite opinion. I'm more bothered by the fist bump than I would have been by a handshake. I see the latter as being the boring expected formality without much meaning. Otoh, I see a fist bump as more of a bromance common-cause gesture. Certainly, people noticed. It's not like anyone would be saying, "OMG, Joe shook his hand."

I would've preferred a no contact nod, but it probably would've made for a short summit.

[Vrede too]

Agreed it's not a significant issue. Of course, in the overall condition of the world, neither is a golf tournament.

In the list of symbolic things that aren't important, in my mind the golf tournament ranks above the fist bump as it's overtly pandering to the murderers and human rights abusers and basically saying "all good."

Cons will of course disagree because that's what they do.

If the golf tournament is "sportswashing" is the state visit "Joewashing"?

More seriously, I agree with you. The golf tournament is optional frivolity while Joe can point to geopolitical and economic reasons for his visit, even if he personally finds it distasteful.

[Vrede too]

The whole thing is frustrating to me. I remember contacting Congress in opposition to arms sales to the Saudis in the 1980s. In 40 years or more we should have figured out a way to stop kissing their asses, especially after 9/11. It's oil and Israel, seemingly eternal banes of our existence.

[O Really]

On the one hand a fist bump is indeed meaningless, but symbolism matters in our world and the real issues are:
9/11
Adnan Khashoggi
Yemen
Women's rights
Support for Islamic extremism and terrorism, etc

I think we should hold the Saudis and Joe to account on these matters.

So what do you think "we" should do?
Does the US have the right/responsibility to change somebody's national culture? And has the effort been successful in the past other than in assisting in government overthrows that resulted in arguably a worse situation than before. Did propping up the Shah make the likelihood of radical and extreme takeover more or less likely.

Iranian women in 1971 (you know what they're like in 2022)

[Vrede too]

On the one hand a fist bump is indeed meaningless, but symbolism matters in our world and the real issues are:
9/11
Adnan Khashoggi
Yemen
Women's rights
Support for Islamic extremism and terrorism, etc

I think we should hold the Saudis and Joe to account on these matters.

So what do you think "we" should do?
Does the US have the right/responsibility to change somebody's national culture?

Given that Women's rights, which I also think are important, are the only internal issue on my list, I'd say that we absolutely have the right/responsibility to influence "national culture" when it impinges on the rest of the world.

And has the effort been successful in the past other than in assisting in government overthrows that resulted in arguably a worse situation than before.

"overthrows" are one thing, but we influence other nations all the time.

Did propping up the Shah make the likelihood of radical and extreme takeover more or less likely.

We definitely should not have turned a blind eye to SAVAK and his other excesses. In fact, the CIA should not have rejected democracy and installed the Shah in the first place.

Iranian women in 1971 (you know what they're like in 2022)

Iranian women are freer than in much of the Islamic world and definitely Saudi Arabia, making up over half of college students.



They've also got women playing golf :
https://www.albawaba.com/sport/iranian- ... lf-1122360



And football :
https://www.newframe.com/theres-hope-fo ... l-in-iran/



Hubba hubba.

[GoCubsGo]

Politics may make for strange bedfellows, but money turns principle into a whoreish excursion.

[O Really]

I read that LIV Golf is following a less extreme strategy of Savannah Bananas https://thesavannahbananas.com/
Make the events more fan-friendly, add other entertainment pieces to the event maybe like a golf version of NFL Experience type of thing, cheapish food/drinks. Maybe not for the true golf fan or purist, but probably more fun for the casual. If they mic the players and allow fan noise, I'm in. I always thought pro golfers (a bunch of divas) ought to have to putt under the same conditions that NBA players shoot free throws.

[GoCubsGo]

I read that LIV Golf is following a less extreme strategy of Savannah Bananas https://thesavannahbananas.com/
Make the events more fan-friendly, add other entertainment pieces to the event maybe like a golf version of NFL Experience type of thing, cheapish food/drinks. Maybe not for the true golf fan or purist, but probably more fun for the casual. If they mic the players and allow fan noise, I'm in. I always thought pro golfers (a bunch of divas) ought to have to putt under the same conditions that NBA players shoot free throws.

I think you're funning, but I'd love to see them that desperate especially when they play a trump course. Turn Bedford into a bigger clown show.

[O Really]

I think you're funning ...

Not entirely. I enjoy sports traditions as much as anyone, but I think pro golf is entirely too stuffy.

[Vrede too]

I read that LIV Golf is following a less extreme strategy of Savannah Bananas https://thesavannahbananas.com/
Make the events more fan-friendly, add other entertainment pieces to the event maybe like a golf version of NFL Experience type of thing, cheapish food/drinks. Maybe not for the true golf fan or purist, but probably more fun for the casual. If they mic the players and allow fan noise, I'm in. I always thought pro golfers (a bunch of divas) ought to have to putt under the same conditions that NBA players shoot free throws.

You forgot cheerleaders, though the burqas will make them less fun.



Oooh, check out the toes on that one.

[O Really]

Oooh, check out the toes on that one.

Harlot!

[GoCubsGo]

LIV doesn't have a TV contract.

Hopefully this will be another non event that leaves Cheetohead fuming when he doesn't get attention.

[GoCubsGo]

LIV doesn't have a TV contract.

Hopefully this will be another non event that leaves Cheetohead fuming when he doesn't get attention.

The more these guys speak the more contempt I feel for them.

More LIV golfers destroy their reputations as they sports wash for MBS

[GoCubsGo]

[O Really]

I think athletes have as much right to an opinion as anybody else, and it's often good if they use their notoriety to widen their effect. But do these reporters ask a player at a PGA event for comments on world events or whether they think Trump's immigration policy is cruel? Do they ask players at a PGA event to criticise the tour sponsors? Does the PGA or other sports league expect their athletes to use the mandatory media time to espouse world peace or decry the Supreme Court's abortion decisions? Seriously, what do they expect these guys to say? "The sponsor of this event, who is paying me millions to be here, is an international criminal who eats more babies than Hillary?"