Ukraine

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Vrede too
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Re: Ukraine

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:problem: MAGAts are traitors.

Flip-flop "Little" Marco:
Watch Marco Rubio pledge support for US vow to defend Ukraine after it gave up its nuclear weapons

... Just over a decade ago Rubio spoke passionately about America’s moral imperative to defend Ukraine against aggression after the nation gave up up its nuclear stockpile following the fall of the Soviet Union.

At the time of Ukraine’s independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine had the third largest nuclear arsenal in the world. The nation surrendered its nuclear warheads as the U.S., Britain and Russia agreed in the Budapest Memorandum to protect the country against aggression, which Russian President Vladimir Putin clearly violated when he ordered the invasion of Ukraine in 2022.

But Russia also violated the memo in early 2014 when it invaded the Crimean Peninsula, which was part of Ukraine, and annexed it. The Western failure that time to defend a country that had voluntarily given up it nuclear arsenal triggered an incensed Rubio, whose angry comments are captured in the video below

“What kind of lesson do you think this instance sends” to the people of Ukraine? asked a frustrated Rubio. “I think the message being sent to many nations around the world is perhaps we can no longer count on the security promises of the free world.”

On Sunday Rubio was angry again as he defended the Trump administration’s cooperation with ... Russia....

On Monday Trump halted military aid to Ukraine and Vice President JD Vance said that only the U.S. and Russia are now in peace talks, which do not involve the nation Russia invaded.
:problem: :puke-left:
“The future is an infinite succession of presents, and to live now as we think human beings should live, in defiance of all that is bad around us, is itself a marvelous victory.”
-- Howard Zinn, 2004
1312. ETTD

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Vrede too
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Re: Ukraine

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“The future is an infinite succession of presents, and to live now as we think human beings should live, in defiance of all that is bad around us, is itself a marvelous victory.”
-- Howard Zinn, 2004
1312. ETTD

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neoplacebo
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Re: Ukraine

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Hell, when you can't lie, you can always whine. It's page 97 of the trump cult LAW bible. The price keeps going up from the start at $59.99
It's a subtle variation on the trump LAW (Lie And Whine) doctrine, but instead it's LOW (Lie Or Whine) but the end result is the same....cultists gushing in awe.

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Vrede too
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Re: Ukraine

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neoplacebo wrote:
Thu Mar 06, 2025 5:32 pm
Hell, when you can't lie, you can always whine. It's page 97 of the trump cult LAW bible. The price keeps going up from the start at $59.99
It's a subtle variation on the trump LAW (Lie And Whine) doctrine, but instead it's LOW (Lie Or Whine) but the end result is the same....cultists gushing in awe.
:thumbup: One recent LAW taken head-on:
David Frum Dunks On GOP’s ‘Manly’ Donald Trump Praise With Brutal ‘Psychosexual’ Dig
The former George W. Bush speechwriter shredded a particular Republican line of defense of the president, causing CNN's John Berman to raise his eyebrows.


... Frum, a onetime speechwriter for former President George W. Bush, slammed and ridiculed one way in which Republicans are sucking up to Trump over the fractious exchange.

They “keep saying ‘He was so manly, he was such a boss,’” Frum noted to CNN’s John Berman on Monday.

“And I think, you know what? I don’t have time for your psychosexual anxieties,” Frum, now a staff writer at The Atlantic, continued.

The comment caused Berman to raise his eyebrows.

“You may feel inadequate in your masculinity and are looking for some puffed-up person on television to bully a valiant leader fighting for a valiant people,” Frum added. “But, I think every true American watched that scene and felt shame.”

Watch Frum’s analysis here:


David Frum On Trump's Berating Of Zelenskyy

...
:o :---P :happy-cheerleaderkid:
At Least Now We Know the Truth
Opinion by David Frum, The Atlantic


At least the Oval Office meeting held by President Donald Trump and Vice President J. D. Vance with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky was held in front of the cameras. False friendliness in public by Trump and Vance, followed by behind-the-scenes treachery, would have been much more dangerous to the Ukrainian cause.

Instead, Trump and Vance have revealed to Americans and to America’s allies their alignment with Russia, and their animosity toward Ukraine in general and its president in particular. The truth is ugly, but it’s necessary to face it....

Both the president and vice president showed the U.S.-led alliance system something it needed urgently to know: The national-security system of the West is led by two men who cannot be trusted to defend America’s allies—and who deeply sympathize with the world’s most aggressive dictator....

But what if the loyalties were not clandestine, not secret? What if a leader just plain blurted out on national television that he despises our allies, rejects treaties, and regards a foreign adversary as a personal friend? What if he did it again and again? Human beings get used to anything. But this?

t’s not hard to imagine a president of Estonia or Moldova in that Oval Office chair, being berated by Trump and Vance. Or a president of Taiwan. Or, for that matter, the leaders of core U.S. partners such as Germany and Japan, which entrusted their nations’ security to the faith and patriotism of past American leaders, only to be confronted by the faithless men who hold the highest offices today.

We’re witnessing the self-sabotage of the United States. “America First” always meant America alone, a predatory America whose role in the world is no longer based on democratic belief. America voted at the United Nations earlier this week against Ukraine, siding with Russia and China against almost all of its fellow democracies. Is this who Americans want to be? For this is what America is being turned into....

The American people need to reckon with the mess Trump and Vance are making of this country’s once-good name—and the services they are performing for dictators and aggressors. There may not be a deep cause here. Trump likes and admires bad people because he is himself a bad person. When Vance executed his personal pivot from Never Trump to Always Trump, he needed a way to prove that he had truly crossed over to the dark side beyond any possibility of reversion or redemption; perhaps his support for Russia allowed him to do that. But however shallow their motives, the consequences are profound.

In his first term, Trump sometimes seemed a rogue actor within his own administration. The president expressed strange and disquieting opinions, but his Cabinet secretaries were mostly normal and responsible people. The oddball appointees on the White House staff were contained by the many more-or-less normal appointees. This time, Trump is building a national-security system to follow his lead. He has intimidated or persuaded his caucus in the House to accept—and his caucus in the Senate not to oppose—his pro-authoritarian agenda.

The good and great America that once inspired global admiration—that good and great America still lives. But it no longer commands a consensus above party. The pro-Trump party exposed its face to the world in the Oval Office today. Nobody who saw that face will ever forget the grotesque sight.
:---P :( :puke-left:
'Brutality': France's Prime Minister Tears Into Donald Trump Over Attack On Zelenskyy
François Bayrou dropped the diplomatic niceties that customarily mark French-U.S. relations.


... “On Friday night, in the Oval Office of the White House, a staggering scene unfurled before the lenses of the entire world, marked by brutality, a desire to humiliate, with the goal of making Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy fold through threats, so that he gives in to the demands of his aggressors,” Bayrou said.

“All this was summed up in one phrase before the planet’s cameras: ‘Either you find a deal with Putin or we will abandon you,’” Bayrou said, apparently referring to Trump’s comments in the Oval Office. Trump’s actual words to Zelenskyy were “you’re either going to make a deal or we’re out.”

Continuing his speech to France’s parliament, Bayrou added: “For the honor of democratic responsibility, for the honor of Ukraine and, I dare say, for the honor of Europe, President Zelenskyy did not fold and I think we can show him our appreciation.”

Lawmakers got to their feet in the National Assembly chamber to applaud.
:clap: :clap: :clap:
... Bayrou said that the Oval Office scene “compromised another fundamental alliance: the one that the United States had with themselves, their history, and with a certain ideal of defending the law, of defending the weak against the forces of tyranny.”
Yup. For now, we are the Dark Side.

MAGA = Traitor
“The future is an infinite succession of presents, and to live now as we think human beings should live, in defiance of all that is bad around us, is itself a marvelous victory.”
-- Howard Zinn, 2004
1312. ETTD

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neoplacebo
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Re: Ukraine

Unread post by neoplacebo »

To this observer, the Lie And Whine and or the Lie Or Whine playbook has worked remarkably well. Especially with the poorly educated and the gullible. Both those groups are facing certain death and utter doom, but what spurs them on is that they don't realize it. Hell, fuck them. I'm still gonna have "He stomped to a feverish beat" on my tombstone. May even include an invitation for anyone so inclined to stomp on my grave. To a feverish beat.

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Vrede too
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Re: Ukraine

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Vrede too wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2025 3:40 pm
Supsalemgr wrote:
Fri Feb 28, 2025 3:22 pm

The bottom line. Without US support Ukraine is toast.
Ukraine has been counted out before, in 2022 when TRE45QN was calling his idol PUTIN a "genius". We'll see. Ukraine's own weapons industry has become huge, it will now be free to launch many more painful attacks deep within Russia, and Europe can step up its aid and may even put troops into Ukraine. I'm not hopeful, but I'm not as defeatist as useful idiots like you are.
:wave:
Three killed in biggest Ukrainian drone attack on Moscow region

MOSCOW (Reuters) -Ukraine on Tuesday launched its biggest ever drone attack on Moscow and the surrounding region, killing at least three employees of a meat warehouse, injuring 17 others and causing a short shutdown at the Russian capital's four airports, Russian officials said.

A total of 343 drones were downed over Russia, including 91 over Moscow region and 126 over the western region of Kursk where Ukrainian forces have been pulling back, as well as near the Kursk nuclear power plant, the defence ministry said....
“The future is an infinite succession of presents, and to live now as we think human beings should live, in defiance of all that is bad around us, is itself a marvelous victory.”
-- Howard Zinn, 2004
1312. ETTD


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Vrede too
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Re: Ukraine

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:roll:
Trump Repeats False Claim From Vladimir Putin In Truth Social Post
The U.S. president seemed optimistic that the three-year conflict would soon come to an end.


... Trump appeared to be referencing Russia’s claims it has encircled troops in its Kursk region. While Russian forces have made advances there, reversing some of Ukraine’s gains over the summer, both Kyiv and independent analysts have questioned the claims, according to The New York Times.

Ukraine’s General Staff said such reports “are false and are being created by the Russians for political purposes and to put pressure on Ukraine and its partners.” ...
PINO is so easy, a useful idiot for Putin.
... Meanwhile, a CNN poll released Friday showed that the majority of Americans disapprove of Trump’s handling of the war in Ukraine and doubt he will succeed in bringing lasting peace to the region.
:thumbup:
“The future is an infinite succession of presents, and to live now as we think human beings should live, in defiance of all that is bad around us, is itself a marvelous victory.”
-- Howard Zinn, 2004
1312. ETTD

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GoCubsGo
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Re: Ukraine

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Moscow is cracking open the vodka in celebration of their useful idiot.

Art of the Deal!😂



Eamus Catuli~AC 000000 000101 010202 020303 010304 020405....Ahhhh, forget it, it's gonna be a while.

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Re: Ukraine

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Vrede too wrote:
Fri Mar 14, 2025 7:21 pm
:roll:
Trump Repeats False Claim From Vladimir Putin In Truth Social Post
The U.S. president seemed optimistic that the three-year conflict would soon come to an end.


... Trump appeared to be referencing Russia’s claims it has encircled troops in its Kursk region. While Russian forces have made advances there, reversing some of Ukraine’s gains over the summer, both Kyiv and independent analysts have questioned the claims, according to The New York Times.

Ukraine’s General Staff said such reports “are false and are being created by the Russians for political purposes and to put pressure on Ukraine and its partners.” ...
PINO is so easy, a useful idiot for Putin.
... Meanwhile, a CNN poll released Friday showed that the majority of Americans disapprove of Trump’s handling of the war in Ukraine and doubt he will succeed in bringing lasting peace to the region.
:thumbup:
Biden had a significant amount of time before the end of his presidency, how did he fare at bringing a lasting peace to that region. Putin saw that Biden was weak which reflected on America and laughed like most other countries.

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Vrede too
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Re: Ukraine

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GoCubsGo wrote:
Tue Mar 18, 2025 2:14 pm
Moscow is cracking open the vodka in celebration of their useful idiot.

Art of the Deal!😂

https://bsky.app/profile/clairecopperma ... obbihais2t

https://x.com/BohuslavskaKate/status/19 ... 9225895418
Or drowning their sorrows:
Russian Losses in Ukraine Cross Grim 2025 Milestone

Russia's troop losses in Ukraine have reached a grim milestone, with Moscow losing 104,650 soldiers in the first three-and-a-half months of 2025, according to figures sourced from Ukraine's Armed Forces....
I think they're including December. -0-?
Why It Matters

Moscow's loss of more than 100,000 troops only adds to its growing manpower shortage, which could injure its ability to continue fighting in the war with Ukraine.

Moreover, Russia's high troops losses in this year alone could increase tensions between Moscow and Kyiv and prolong the ongoing peace negotiations.

What To Know

As the war has escalated, Ukraine's tally, which includes both those wounded and killed, has found that Russia has lost more than 100,000 troops in the last three-and-a-half months. Newsweek has yet to verify this.

Russia's loss of troops also spiked since June 2024 and reached its peak in December 2024 and January 2025.

Moscow's loss of soldiers reached approximately 2,000 per day in January, but it has since fallen to be anywhere from 1,200 to 1,500 soldiers per day in February and March.

Since the war began when Russia illegally invaded Ukraine in 2022, Kyiv has found that Russia has lost a total of 895,450 men, according to the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine.

Ukraine does not often release information on its own military losses, but in his most recent update on the subject, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky said in an interview with NBC News in February that, since the war began, approximately 380,000 Ukrainian soldiers have been injured and 46,000 have been killed.

Many have speculated that Zelensky's statements about Ukrainian losses are an underestimate and believe that Kyiv's losses may be in the hundreds of thousands....

What Happens Next

Russia may not be able to continue fighting in the war with Ukraine if it continues losing troops at this rate and may have to make concessions in peace negotiations.
Even allowing for lies and wishful thinking, :shock: :cry: .
“The future is an infinite succession of presents, and to live now as we think human beings should live, in defiance of all that is bad around us, is itself a marvelous victory.”
-- Howard Zinn, 2004
1312. ETTD


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Jasmine
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Re: Ukraine

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Imagine rooting for peace negotiations to fail… -0-?

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O Really
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Re: Ukraine

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I don't know it's so much rooting for the negotiations to fail as it is recognizing the self-appointed arbitrator has a pretty long record of making things worse than when he got there.

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Jasmine
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Re: Ukraine

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O Really wrote:
Tue Mar 18, 2025 10:42 pm
I don't know it's so much rooting for the negotiations to fail as it is recognizing the self-appointed arbitrator has a pretty long record of making things worse than when he got there.
But wouldn’t you agree that trying to broker peace is better than doing absolutely nothing?

Do you know who is supporting Trump’s position on Ukraine? Code Pink.

The world has turned upside down!

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O Really
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Re: Ukraine

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It's not "doing nothing" to try to stay out of war yourself while supporting your allies against a country that (internationally)illegally conducted an unprovoked invasion and land grab.

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Jasmine
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Re: Ukraine

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O Really wrote:
Tue Mar 18, 2025 11:27 pm
It's not "doing nothing" to try to stay out of war yourself while supporting your allies against a country that (internationally)illegally conducted an unprovoked invasion and land grab.
Here is an official statement from Code Pink:
The heated exchange in the White House between President Trump, Vice President J.D. Vance, and Ukraine’s President Zelenskyy ​is not helpful for finding an immediate solution to the conflict. It may, however; force a necessary reset, reflecting the Trump administration's very rational position that it will not keep supporting Ukraine to fight an endless war that it cannot win on the battlefield.​ The response to this exchange in the media has been largely about the demonstrated lack of decorum from the Trump Administration regarding Ukraine – but we encourage the public to focus instead on the material realities facing Ukraine and Russia. This war continuing would cost thousands of more Ukrainian and Russian lives – and an escalation would have an impact on the entire world.

President Trump was correct in saying that this war risks triggering World War III, that too many soldiers have already been killed, and that it is critical to find a solution. Without an end to US weapons to Ukraine, the war would continue to present an increased risk of nuclear catastrophe. However, the Trump Administration should also cease using Ukraine’s resources as a pawn in the peace process.

We hope the US and Ukraine come back together on a more realistic basis before the war escalates further, but that will require serious diplomacy. It will require Europe ​to stop encouraging Ukraine to keep fighting​. Now is the moment when all sides ​must recognize that this ​war must be settled at the negotiating table, no matter how hard that is. Last week, CODEPINK called on all members of Congress to join us in supporting diplomatic efforts, instead of obstructing the peace process.

Unfortunately, the US and UK persuaded Ukraine to walk away from the negotiating table in April 2022, when Ukraine was in a much stronger position and Russia was ready to withdraw. There is no sugar-coating the reality that Ukraine is now in a much weaker position as a result of that.
So you disagree with these peaceniks?

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Vrede too
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Re: Ukraine

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O Really wrote:
Tue Mar 18, 2025 10:42 pm
I don't know it's so much rooting for the negotiations to fail as it is recognizing the self-appointed arbitrator has a pretty long record of making things worse than when he got there.
Agreed. Predicting Putin's stooge DonOLD will fail is not the same as wishing for it.
Jasmine wrote:
Tue Mar 18, 2025 10:48 pm
But wouldn’t you agree that trying to broker peace is better than doing absolutely nothing?

Do you know who is supporting Trump’s position on Ukraine? Code Pink.

The world has turned upside down!
If the peace brokered is Ukraine's submission and Putin being encouraged to further expand Russia it may be worse than doing absolutely nothing.

Code Pink's position is a bit more complex than "supporting Trump’s position on Ukraine":

Is This the Beginning or the End of a New Cold War?

CODEPINK Response to Trump, J.D. Vance, Zelensky White House Exchange
“The future is an infinite succession of presents, and to live now as we think human beings should live, in defiance of all that is bad around us, is itself a marvelous victory.”
-- Howard Zinn, 2004
1312. ETTD

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Jasmine
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Re: Ukraine

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Vrede too wrote:
Tue Mar 18, 2025 11:51 pm
O Really wrote:
Tue Mar 18, 2025 10:42 pm
I don't know it's so much rooting for the negotiations to fail as it is recognizing the self-appointed arbitrator has a pretty long record of making things worse than when he got there.
Agreed. Predicting Putin's stooge DonOLD will fail is not the same as wishing for it.
Jasmine wrote:
Tue Mar 18, 2025 10:48 pm
But wouldn’t you agree that trying to broker peace is better than doing absolutely nothing?

Do you know who is supporting Trump’s position on Ukraine? Code Pink.

The world has turned upside down!
If the peace brokered is Ukraine's submission and Putin being encouraged to further expand Russia it may be worse than doing absolutely nothing.

Code Pink's position is a bit more complex than "supporting Trump’s position on Ukraine":

Is This the Beginning or the End of a New Cold War?

CODEPINK Response to Trump, J.D. Vance, Zelensky White House Exchange
Good comments.

Here is an interesting analysis from University of Chicago Prof. Konstantin Sonin, who is a Russian exile and very vocal critic of Putrid:
Do you see the potential for a negotiated end to the war?

Highly doubtful. Putin is the main obstacle for negotiations. He's not really interested in meaningful talks. Nor is he interested in negotiating security guarantees—Ukraine getting NATO protection, or steps like Polish, Swedish, or Norwegian troops on the border. His goal is to subjugate Ukraine. For him, it's not territory. It's control over the whole country.

What could cause him to stop? I think there is an outside chance of a military coup. It might look similar to what happened during the Russian Revolution: some participants of the coup opposed the war because they wanted to stop the dying, and the other participants were against the war because they disliked how it was being prosecuted.

There are other examples from history worth considering, too. In 1943, the Nazis occupied half of France and half of European Russia, but Hitler never actually negotiated despite the strength of his position. It's true that Stalin, Churchill, and Roosevelt decided at Yalta that they were not going to negotiate with him, but there is no evidence that Hitler himself was ever interested in serious talks. I think Putin is at least as ideological as Hitler. Maybe not as evil, but he's just as ideological. That’s why it seems very unlikely that he’ll negotiate.
The professor also thinks that Trump will not be able to deliver the kind of negotiated settlement that Putrid wants.

https://news.uchicago.edu/story/whats-f ... ar-ukraine

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Vrede too
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Re: Ukraine

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Jasmine wrote:
Wed Mar 19, 2025 12:04 am
Good comments.

Here is an interesting analysis from University of Chicago Prof. Konstantin Sonin, who is a Russian exile and very vocal critic of Putrid:
Do you see the potential for a negotiated end to the war?

Highly doubtful. Putin is the main obstacle for negotiations. He's not really interested in meaningful talks. Nor is he interested in negotiating security guarantees—Ukraine getting NATO protection, or steps like Polish, Swedish, or Norwegian troops on the border. His goal is to subjugate Ukraine. For him, it's not territory. It's control over the whole country...
The professor also thinks that Trump will not be able to deliver the kind of negotiated settlement that Putrid wants.

https://news.uchicago.edu/story/whats-f ... ar-ukraine
Opps, I didn't know that you had already posted Code Pink's press release, the second link I posted. I think their position is a bit naive, coming from their pacifist perspective. It looks like an Rx for Ukraine's capitulation to me, and the threat that would pose to the rest of Europe.

I lean more towards Prof Sonin's realism.

I think the most likely outcome is for PINO to do Putin's bidding and come up with some excuse to walk away while cutting off the military aid. Then? Idk, Ukraine has built up its own weapons industry, Europe may step up aid, and that coup may happen or Putin may die. -0-?
“The future is an infinite succession of presents, and to live now as we think human beings should live, in defiance of all that is bad around us, is itself a marvelous victory.”
-- Howard Zinn, 2004
1312. ETTD

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