Big Brother is Watching You

[O Really]

It's a talking point for the libertarians and Obama haters. I don't think most Republicans have a problem with the excesses of the national security state.

I dunno, man. Lots of what passes for "Republicans" are damgummint-hating yayhoos who are ag'in anything the damgummint does. What they don't see is that the Dems form of "big gummint" would benefit them; the Republican form or "big gummint" is what they rage against. Yet they vote Red. Idiots.

[O Really]

True, but on this issue they didn't seem to mind until it was Obama doing it, just as some on the left approved once it was Obama doing it.

Yeah, and to some it may be a left/right or Obama/not-Obama issue. To me it's not. I'm part of the old school that believes that a secret can be shared by two if one of them is dead. That if you tell everybody who wants to know how and from whom you're collecting intel, you'll include some that will use it against you. That sometimes you have to trust those you (as an employer or a nation) hire/elect/appoint to deal with issues without insisting on knowing exactly how its done. That nobody would eat sausage if they had to kill the pig and watch the process.

[O Really]

My lovely wife agrees with you that the US should treat people who lop off heads for sport in a gentle and polite manner.
Not arguing over whether the torture "worked" or not - the report is what it is - but since those critical of those practices haven't seemed to present alternatives that probably would "work", I've got some suggestions. I think instead of "black locations" they should put them all up in Marriotts. The mental pain of having to pay for internet in an expensive hotel when it's free in cheap ones should bring them right around. I think they should arrange conjugal visits with some of the 75 virgins as a show of good faith. And all guards - er, hosts - should grow beards, dress in Muslim-approved gear, and pray to Allah with the prisoners - er, guests. Yeah, that's the ticket.

[rstrong]

The Intercept: 12 Things to Keep in Mind When You Read the Torture Report
(Each expanded in the story. It's worth reading.)

1) You’re not actually reading the torture report.

2) The CIA got to cut out parts.

3) Senate Democrats had their backs to the wall.

4) The investigation was extremely narrow in its focus.

5) The investigation didn’t examine who gave the CIA its orders, or why.

6) Torture was hardly limited to the CIA.

7) Senate investigators conducted no interviews of torture victims.

8) Senate investigators conducted no interviews of CIA officials.

9) In fact, Senate investigators conducted no interviews at all.

10) Bush and Cheney have acknowledged their roles in the program.

11) The report’s conclusion that torture didn’t do any good is a big deal.

12) No one has been held accountable.

[rstrong]

It should also be pointed out that the CIA & Friends weren't just torturing terrorists. They were torturing a lot of people just to test vague suspicions that they *might* have some connection to terrorists.

[rstrong]

"That is why I will continue to use my authority as president to make sure we never resort to those methods again," he said.

Meaning a temporary suspension of torture for the rest of his term.

There's not a hint of prosecuting those who did it. There's not a hint of prosecuting those who ordered it. Dick Cheney and friends are still on US news programs and no-one bats an eye. John Yoo, who wrote the torture memos to tell those who did it that torture was peachy-keen, is a law professor at **Berkeley** for Christ's sake.

Before the 2004 election it was already known that the US had turned into a torture state. It was already known that it wasn't just "a few bad apples"; it was US policy and being done on a large scale. Bush II and friends were reelected.

During the 2012 election Republican candidates Bachmann, Cain, Perry and Santorum each called for torture to resume. Mr. Romney's advisers have privately urged him to call for a resumption of torture. (Presumably Ron Paul thought that torture is an issue that should be left to the states.) Not only did this not cause a scandal or hurt their chances within the Republican Party, but there wasn't a hint of a scandal about it with the Democrats or the general public.

This is not a country that has ended torture. At most it's a country that has paused torture for the current administration.

[rstrong]

Is Canada still an ally?

From my answer to the same question on the old board:

Understand, Canada, the EU, Australia and others have laws against extraditing people to the US if they face execution there. And so it came as a surprise that they had to make the same rules about torture. It may not make the news in the US, but in other countries there have been major scandals about their intelligence officials cooperating with American torture, knowing about it and doing nothing, or even being present for interrogations.

They're party to the United Nation Convention against Torture, and that sort of thing is illegal in those countries. The result was government inquiries and new policies.

In Canada: (link)
"The courts’ message is therefore that CSIS can no longer undertake its activities solely through the insular lens of intelligence-gathering, rather it must consider the wider environment and implications within which its work is carried out. This includes both the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and Canada’s obligations under international law." Another Canadians was kidnapped while transferring flights in New York, flown to a 3rd country, tortured for 11 months, and released with an "er, never mind."

In Australia: (PDF Link)
"39. The legislation should bind all Australian agencies, including the military. Australia’s human rights obligations under the Convention Against Torture and the Second Optional Protocol are non-derogable – even in times of war.35
40. An Agency-to-Agency Assistance Act should provide that assistance which has a negative human rights connotation should never be provided to countries that violate human rights.36 The Act should state that assistance should not be provided if it exposes anyone to the real risk of execution or torture."

In Britain it was especially a media circus, with Ministers scrambling to defend themselves:
Ministers: We did not know about US torture
""It appears that after 9/11 the US authorities changed the rules of engagement for their staff in the fight against international terrorism. When this became clear to us, Agency guidance to our own staff was changed to make clear their responsibilities, not just to avoid any involvement or complicity in unacceptable practice, but also to report on them."

"The allegation that our security and intelligence agencies have license to collude in torture is disgraceful, untrue and one that we vigorously deny. The Government's clear policy is not to participate in, solicit, encourage or condone the use of torture or cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment for any purpose.""

This after the case of Binyam Mohamed:

The 25 lines edited out of the court papers contained details of how Mr Mohamed’s genitals were sliced with a scalpel and other torture methods so extreme that waterboarding, the controversial technique of simulated drowning, “is very far down the list of things they did,” the official said.

Another source familiar with the case said: “British intelligence officers knew about the torture and didn’t do anything about it.”

Note that those are not mere accusations from the accused. That comes from British Intelligence (MI5) papers that the court ordered released, after allegations that MI5 was complicit in the torture. (They knew about it but did nothing.) The Telegraph: UK government suppressed evidence on Binyam Mohamed torture because MI6 helped his interrogators

Needless to say, the Brits put a stop to that sort of complicity.

Binyam Mohamed was released after seven years with an "er, never mind."

Also, EU countries and Canada also put a stop to American "extraordinary rendition" flights over their territories once they found out what was happening. The situation blew up in Germany after one of their citizens got kidnapped from Europe, beaten and sodomized for "capture shock" and flown to Afghanistan for months of imprisonment in appalling conditions - because he shared the same name as a terrorist. He was released in a different country, on country road in the middle of the night with no money, with an "er, never mind." (Link)

So we're still allies, but more careful about getting too close or too trusting in that alliance.

[O Really]

Maybe we could re-do the inscription on the Statue of Liberty.
"Send us your crazies, your murderous extremists..."

[O Really]

http://news.yahoo.com/list-13-technique ... 26183.html
List of the 13 techniques used on detainees.

Except for water-boarding and walling, I'm pretty sure some frats back in the day (like, Animal House day) practiced most on that list with the pledges. Not mine, but animal houses like the KA's had a really horrible "Hell Week."

[O Really]

Some kids died and frat hazing has mostly been reined in, and there's no comparison with voluntary, escapable, abuse of a limited and predictable duration.

Our differing opinions don't matter that much. Torture is well defined in US and international law.

Yeah, I know. I just have a hard time generating much sympathy for jihadists. I also find it a bit disingenuous for people to read books, watch movies/tv for decades in which intel is frequently extracted by some forceful means and then all of a sudden being shocked! shocked, I say! to find that much of those stories is at least somewhat based on reality.

[rstrong]

Except for water-boarding and walling, I'm pretty sure some frats back in the day (like, Animal House day) practiced most on that list with the pledges. Not mine, but animal houses like the KA's had a really horrible "Hell Week."

Are you really that gullible? This article is a puff piece. An apologetic attempt to put lipstick on the pig to get exactly your response, from people who haven't looked at serious reporting.

It doesn't mention that the torturers were doing many of those practices simultaneously. For hours, days, months on end. No, "frats back in the day" were not putting pledges in painful stress positions for 18 hours a day, day after day, forced to shit themselves. They were not subject to sleep deprivation for 180 hours.

The article skips things that were in the report; sodomizing prisoners, electrical shocks, having their families threatened, or being left to die of hypothermia, naked in a cold cell. And simulated burials and being told they'd never leave the prison alive.

It mentions torturing specific al-Qaida operatives - 'cuz that's peachy keen - without mentioning that they were doing the same thing to others to test vague suspicions that they might have some connection to terrorism.

And remember, the report released yesterday is just the executive summary - AFTER the CIA as removed the more embarrassing bits. Which is probably why it doesn't things like mentioning cutting into people's testicles with razor blades - as MI5 officials testified witnessing.

The article doesn't even mention "torture" or "torturer" even once. It uses interrogation / interrogator 14 times.

This is the propaganda version. An attempt to water it down for useful idiots to compare with frat houses.

[O Really]

Except for water-boarding and walling, I'm pretty sure some frats back in the day (like, Animal House day) practiced most on that list with the pledges. Not mine, but animal houses like the KA's had a really horrible "Hell Week."

Are you really that gullible? This article is a puff piece. An apologetic attempt to put lipstick on the pig to get exactly your response, from people who haven't looked at serious reporting.

....

I take it you're not a fan of the CIA?
It's all propaganda. The parade of horribles as well as the apologists.

[rstrong]

Yeah, I know. I just have a hard time generating much sympathy for jihadists. I also find it a bit disingenuous for people to read books, watch movies/tv for decades in which intel is frequently extracted by some forceful means and then all of a sudden being shocked! shocked, I say! to find that much of those stories is at least somewhat based on reality.

Sure. TV shows have always shown police sodomizing and drugging criminals, chaining them naked in stress positions and forcing them to shit themselves, cutting into their testicles with razor blades and convincing them that they were being buried alive.

And sure, any professional cop on TV did all this to people with only the vaguest of suspicions - before letting them go with a "never mind" - because you had to be thorough. And if a cleared suspect might say something bad about the experience, keeping them in custody for another decade was standard procedure.

But they usually made the point that it was a "doesn't play by the rules" cop doing it, or an older cop - retiring in four days - who had the wisdom to know when and when not to rape a suspect.

[neoplacebo]

This whole thing reminds me of how I felt when I was in the Navy and in certain places in The Phillipines because I knew our country was responsible for keeping things the way they were. I felt sorry for those people since I realized my country was completely in support of Marcos just because we didn't want Communism to take hold....then, and maybe even now. there was no middle class; you were either rich or poor. I felt shame about it. Perhaps things haven't changed there, but if not, it's not because the US is supporting a corrupt regime as it was for so many years. This current affair makes me feel more shame than I felt then. I honestly think that those responsible for this goddam situation should be prosecuted for it. And those responsible for it are Bush, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Feith, and all their underlings. Those bastards will never face proper justice and will forever hide behind the ruse of "national security." It's a fucking disgrace that those dubmasses have forever tarnished the image of our country in such a way that can never be remedied. My only hope is that they realize this and live every day of the rest of their miserable bullshit lives knowing that. Whether they can insulate themselves from guilt and blame with wingnut approvals and excuses from Fox News and other pathetic op eds that support them is just a question of how able they are to deny reality and for how long. I imagine it's like torture for them and I hope it is.

[O Really]

Well, there is that.
But on the real side, I don't have a lot of good ideas as to how to deal with people who hate the US and everything about it. Not something you can fix, but something almost genetic - like Mr.B and gays. No amount of fact or reason is going to change them. They don't follow our standards or culture. They don't respect our laws or principles. They respect only strength. They don't give up; they don't "move on." They aren't afraid to die for their cause, in fact they welcome the opportunity. You can't reason with them; you can't threaten them. In theory, I don't favor torture, but when someone sees anything less as weakness and is happily willing to be a martyr, it's hard to demand they be treated kindly.

[neoplacebo]

Most US citizens have never spent any extended period of time outside the country and because of that they have an insular, detached, ambivalent view of what the US does in other parts of the world in their name....and they wonder and bitch and moan about why others hate America. Then they express opinions and views that tend to feed on and intensify their own illusions and misconceptions and fears.

[O Really]

Yeah, I know. I just have a hard time generating much sympathy for jihadists. I also find it a bit disingenuous for people to read books, watch movies/tv for decades in which intel is frequently extracted by some forceful means and then all of a sudden being shocked! shocked, I say! to find that much of those stories is at least somewhat based on reality.

Sure. TV shows have always shown police sodomizing and drugging criminals, chaining them naked in stress positions and forcing them to shit themselves, cutting into their testicles with razor blades and convincing them that they were being buried alive.

And sure, any professional cop on TV did all this to people with only the vaguest of suspicions - before letting them go with a "never mind" - because you had to be thorough. And if a cleared suspect might say something bad about the experience, keeping them in custody for another decade was standard procedure.

But they usually made the point that it was a "doesn't play by the rules" cop doing it, or an older cop - retiring in four days - who had the wisdom to know when and when not to rape a suspect.

You know "Huck" on "Scandal" as well as the rest of 621? You see what they do on "Covert Affair"? People watch these shows and say "yay, kick him in the balls again" and then get all sanctimonious when some jihadist gets treated poorly IRL. What makes a society of laws work, vs. a society of violence, is that everybody has to buy in to the concept of the law. If they don't, then those following the law will always be bested by those who ignore them.

[neoplacebo]

Well, there is that.
But on the real side, I don't have a lot of good ideas as to how to deal with people who hate the US and everything about it. Not something you can fix, but something almost genetic - like Mr.B and gays. No amount of fact or reason is going to change them. They don't follow our standards or culture. They don't respect our laws or principles. They respect only strength. They don't give up; they don't "move on." They aren't afraid to die for their cause, in fact they welcome the opportunity. You can't reason with them; you can't threaten them. In theory, I don't favor torture, but when someone sees anything less as weakness and is happily willing to be a martyr, it's hard to demand they be treated kindly.

I have no sympathy for radical religious jihadists at all. I have no problem with Special Forces seeking them out and killing them on sight. But to snatch people off the street or anywhere else and toy with them in sadistic and brutal ways over a period of ten years or more is just beyond the pale. Thanks to Bush and Cheney creating Al Qaeda in Iraq and Israel's continual stoking of the flames, we find ourselves in a never ending religious war because of the things we publicly support and fund. And some profess to being ignorant as to why this is. We need to get those ignorant people out of positions of power.And even if we don't do that, things will get a lot worse before they get better, We've passed the point of no return I think.

[O Really]

Most US citizens have never spent any extended period of time outside the country and because of that they have an insular, detached, ambivalent view of what the US does in other parts of the world in their name....and they wonder and bitch and moan about why others hate America. Then they express opinions and views that tend to feed on and intensify their own illusions and misconceptions and fears.

I for one don't have any illusions as to how badly the US has stepped on its own dick with foreign relations. Maybe for a brief period we were the "good guys" after WWII, but by the mid-fifties, we were the "Ugly American". Kennedy didn't help with Bay of Pigs and the related sabre-rattling, and then there was Vietnam and it's all been pretty much downhill since then. But much like the eternal conflict among Sunnis and Shi'ites, between Israelis and Arabians, not all hate is dependent on what we actually do. In any case, whatever the cause, we can either defend or roll over. I'm not much for rolling over.

[O Really]

I have no sympathy for radical religious jihadists at all. I have no problem with Special Forces seeking them out and killing them on sight.t.

I could go for that.