JTA wrote:
Fucking oh well, end of the day they should be able to hold this parade even in predominantly muslim areas. Tough shit guys, deal with it.
Yeah, in theory. But that's not necessarily the way the real world works best. "Free speech" means the government can't prevent you (within reason) from saying what you want to say. It doesn't mean there aren't social consequences from exercising it. And when you add that "your freedom ends at the end of my nose" you have to consider the effect of increasing diversity - something Sweden hasn't always had to deal with.
So hypothetical question - how is holding a pig-picking with Muhammad's picture on the plates in a Muslim neighborhood any different from burning a cross with Confederate flags in a black neighborhood?
We may not be able to legislate morality, but it seems like we ought to be able to legislate civility and related behaviour.
JTA wrote:
Fucking oh well, end of the day they should be able to hold this parade even in predominantly muslim areas. Tough shit guys, deal with it.
Yeah, in theory. But that's not necessarily the way the real world works best. "Free speech" means the government can't prevent you (within reason) from saying what you want to say. It doesn't mean there aren't social consequences from exercising it. And when you add that "your freedom ends at the end of my nose" you have to consider the effect of increasing diversity - something Sweden hasn't always had to deal with.
So hypothetical question - how is holding a pig-picking with Muhammad's picture on the plates in a Muslim neighborhood any different from burning a cross with Confederate flags in a black neighborhood?
We may not be able to legislate morality, but it seems like we ought to be able to legislate civility and related behaviour.
I understand where you're coming from, but I have to disagree. Now, I agree that holding a pig picking festival with Mohammed plates in a heavily Islamic area would be tacky, because the only purpose of that would be to incite anger and offend. It shouldn't be legally barred from happening in my opinion either. Just as I shouldnt be legally barred from smearing shit all over an image of the virgin Mary, or selling Jesus blow up dolls in Cowpens SC. I wouldn't do any of those things personally because I'm not that much of an ass. I think these actions differ than a gay pride March in that they serve no other purpose other than to intimidate.
You're comparing burning crosses with confederate flags in black neighborhoods with a gay pride parade in an Islamic area. Historically, burning crosses has been associated with the KKK, an organization whose history we're all familiar with here in the US. As of now though, im unaware of any ongoing campaigns of intimidation and destruction of life and property by LGBTs specifically against Muslims. Gay pride marches don't aim to intimidate as far as I'm aware, theyre typically held to bring awareness to LGBT rights. Sort of like civil rights matches were held in areas hostile to their cause back in the day.
This also begs the question, should we bar gay pride marches in some heavily Baptist areas on South Carolina because the majority of inhabitants disagree with that lifestyle?
You aren't doing it wrong if no one knows what you are doing.
Did anyone watch Superman Beats the KKK on AHC. Some more kind of funny stuff. Ol' Super Duper just free speeched all over them and more powerfully than a speeding bullet tuned them into the laughing stock of 1946, and ending their post war resurgence
Trump: “We had the safest border in the history of our country - or at least recorded history. I guess maybe a thousand years ago it was even better.”
O Really wrote:legislate civility and related behaviour.
I don't think this is something you can legislate either. I don't think it's something we ought to legislate. An example being hate-speech laws that some European countries have. These I disagree with.
Now, civility and tolerance are important attributes to have in ones culture. This I wholly agree with. No matter what you're going to have assholes that try to push the boundaries. I mean, context is everything, and given that it's being organized by a group probably hostile towards immigration, yeah maybe you're right to a certain extent. They're obviously organizing it to make a point about something, but I do have to say I think the point is being well made even if I disagree with their politics.
Why is having a gay pride parade in an Islamic area a problem? Shouldn't it be acceptable to hold such a gathering anywhere? Why not in an all ethnic-Swede area? An urban area? A rural area? A predominantly Catholic area? Predominantly secular area? A part of town populated mostly by white-collar workers? How about one populated mostly by blue-collar Polish immigrants?
Should intolerance get a pass when religion comes into the mix?
You aren't doing it wrong if no one knows what you are doing.
O Really wrote:how is holding a pig-picking with Muhammad's picture on the plates in a Muslim neighborhood any different from burning a cross with Confederate flags in a black neighborhood?
JTA wrote:Gay pride marches don't aim to intimidate as far as I'm aware,
When I read the prior posts, I was reminded of this book published in 1969, "What If They Gave a War And Nobody Came?"
The purpose of a gay pride parade, in my opinion, is a show-off event used to attract the "offended" and inflame emotions. If no one showed up at one of these events, and the holy rollers thumping their Bibles weren't present to berate them, interest in gay pride parades would wither and die. The only purpose of the aforementioned pig-picking or a cross-burning is to intimidate and inflame, and in some cases, it creates violence, as evidenced in the recent "draw an ugly Mohammed contest".
Don't take life too seriously; No one gets out alive
O Really wrote:how is holding a pig-picking with Muhammad's picture on the plates in a Muslim neighborhood any different from burning a cross with Confederate flags in a black neighborhood?
JTA wrote:Gay pride marches don't aim to intimidate as far as I'm aware,
When I read the prior posts, I was reminded of this book published in 1969, "What If They Gave a War And Nobody Came?"
The purpose of a gay pride parade, in my opinion, is a show-off event used to attract the "offended" and inflame emotions. If no one showed up at one of these events, and the holy rollers thumping their Bibles weren't present to berate them, interest in gay pride parades would wither and die. The only purpose of the aforementioned pig-picking or a cross-burning is to intimidate and inflame, and in some cases, it creates violence, as evidenced in the recent "draw an ugly Mohammed contest".
Couldn't the same be said of almost any kind of "march" or parade though? Why hold a Christmas parade if there are no spectators?
The gay pride parade they hold in Spartanburg every year is usually attended by plenty of spectators who are fine with the lifestyle. There's typically only a handful of angry people present, usually far outnumbered by people who are ok accepting of the lifestyle.
Another angle is parades and marches help bring awareness to certain causes by bringing the issue to the fore front. Once something becomes more ubiquitous through various avenues it's probably more likely to eventually gain acceptance because it stops being a social more that nobody talks about and simply ignores. When it's in your face like in a march or parade, you're forced to see it and forced to have some kind of dialogue rather than brushing it under the rug and ignoring it. That's the whole point of any march or protest.
I especially can't knock a peaceful protest or march where no destruction of innocents' property takes place.
You aren't doing it wrong if no one knows what you are doing.
Good points all around. But not all "parades" are the same. Let's say you have a Main Street in your town, and it is the primary parade route for the Holiday parades, Labor Day, Hooray the High School won - whatever. Anybody ought to get to run their parade down that street and those who don't like it don't have to show up. If the route goes past a Baptist church or a Mosque, so be it. If the parade route has a park where festivals are held, everybody should have access to the park. If it's a BBQ fest and the park happens to be across from the Mosque, fine.
But that's different from going into a particular neighborhood for the primary purpose of taunting or intimidating the residents. Or holding a "draw Muhammad" convention that you know serves no useful purpose.
Seth Milner wrote:The purpose of a gay pride parade, in my opinion, is a show-off event used to attract the "offended" and inflame emotions....
Nope, no one cares if counter-demonstrators show up, if Mr.B and homerfobe search out and post their obsessive pics here, or if some rapidly diminishing numbers of bigots are offended. They're celebrations as much as St. Pat's Day Parades are.
Last edited by Vrede too on Tue Aug 04, 2015 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
JTA wrote:... Why is having a gay pride parade in an Islamic area a problem? Shouldn't it be acceptable to hold such a gathering anywhere? ...
That's a little off track. If legit gay groups someday decide to hold parades in hostile Muslim areas as a calculated strategy for advancing human rights, more power to them. However, this is about a racist (and probably not gay at all) group deliberately inflaming homophobia. I wouldn't necessarily support a ban, but I do favor almost all opposition short of that.
Seth Milner wrote:The purpose of a gay pride parade, in my opinion, is a show-off event used to attract the "offended" and inflame emotions....
Nope, no one cares if counter-demonstrators show up, if Mr.B and homerfobe search out and post their obsessive pics here, or if some rapidly diminishing numbers of bigots are offended. They're celebrations as much as St. Pat's Day Parades are.
I don't remember seeing any obsessive pics posted by Mr. B, homerfobe, yes.
(oops. I better be careful, I might get accused of being Mr. B-ish)
Don't take life too seriously; No one gets out alive
JTA wrote:... Why is having a gay pride parade in an Islamic area a problem? Shouldn't it be acceptable to hold such a gathering anywhere? ...
That's a little off track. If legit gay groups someday decide to hold parades in hostile Muslim areas as a calculated strategy for advancing human rights, more power to them. However, this is about a racist (and probably not gay at all) group deliberately inflaming homophobia. I wouldn't necessarily support a ban, but I doi favor almost all opposition short of that.
Alright yeah, fair enough. I see what you and O Really are getting at. If it was a gay pride group saying "Ay yo lets march through this Muslim area known for hating on gays to bring awareness to the fact that they're intolerant against homosexuals." It'd be alright. I can get behind that. But since it's a right wing group using gay pride as a tool for their own ends it changes things up a little bit.
You aren't doing it wrong if no one knows what you are doing.
JTA wrote:... Why is having a gay pride parade in an Islamic area a problem? Shouldn't it be acceptable to hold such a gathering anywhere? ...
That's a little off track. If legit gay groups someday decide to hold parades in hostile Muslim areas as a calculated strategy for advancing human rights, more power to them. However, this is about a racist (and probably not gay at all) group deliberately inflaming homophobia. I wouldn't necessarily support a ban, but I doi favor almost all opposition short of that.
Alright yeah, fair enough. I see what you and O Really are getting at. If it was a gay pride group saying "Ay yo lets march through this Muslim area known for hating on gays to bring awareness to the fact that they're intolerant against homosexuals." It'd be alright. I can get behind that. But since it's a right wing group using gay pride as a tool for their own ends it changes things up a little bit.
agreed
Intent invalidates the pretend cause
Trump: “We had the safest border in the history of our country - or at least recorded history. I guess maybe a thousand years ago it was even better.”
Mr.B and Homo (or the personas they play on the forum) have the same views and are equally homophobic. Mr.B was not as crude or as obscene in his posts, but "unnatcheral" is the same point of view as "fudge-packing perverts" or whatever Homo's bathroom wall expression of the day was. Both of these characters see homosexuality as an evil aberration, not as a naturally occurring difference. Neither of them could see a gay person in the totality of his/her life, but only in the bedroom activities they imagined gay people to do. They could never understand the difference in "average" or "typical" or "usually" from "normal" or recognize that in any bell curve the ends are just as much a normal occurrence as the mode. I'm pretty sure they had some level of belief that "gay" was contagious and could spread like a plague if marriage equality passed.
O Really wrote:Mr.B and Homo (or the personas they play on the forum) have the same views and are equally homophobic. Mr.B was not as crude or as obscene in his posts, but "unnatcheral" is the same point of view as "fudge-packing perverts" or whatever Homo's bathroom wall expression of the day was. Both of these characters see homosexuality as an evil aberration, not as a naturally occurring difference. Neither of them could see a gay person in the totality of his/her life, but only in the bedroom activities they imagined gay people to do. They could never understand the difference in "average" or "typical" or "usually" from "normal" or recognize that in any bell curve the ends are just as much a normal occurrence as the mode. I'm pretty sure they had some level of belief that "gay" was contagious and could spread like a plague if marriage equality passed.
When I was a little kid I thought you could catch autism from autistic kids like you could the flu, so I was real scared to be around them because I didn't want to become autistic. I finally asked my mom and she told me that that wasn't possible, so I felt a lot better afterwards about being around autistic kids.
You aren't doing it wrong if no one knows what you are doing.
JTA wrote:
When I was a little kid I thought you could catch autism from autistic kids like you could the flu, so I was real scared to be around them because I didn't want to become autistic. I finally asked my mom and she told me that that wasn't possible, so I felt a lot better afterwards about being around autistic kids.
Yeppers. There's a reason it's called homo phobic.
Seth Milner wrote:
I did go back and look through the thread; about 40 pages worth. His first post in this thread is on page 24 showing an 80ish, naked, tattooed woman; nothing obsessive about that. Other pictures I saw were of the Oriental girls(?) His posts in this thread mostly dealt with his Biblical beliefs that deal with homosexuality being unnatural and un-Godly; I found nothing that he wrote that was downright hateful or that hinged on obsession. Replies to his posts however, were the most hateful remarks I found in this thread. homerfobe is the most vile outspoken poster that posted words to inflame the ones of you who speak in favor of, and support homosexuality and homosexual marriage.
(oops I accidently edited this post and probably removed stuff -- Banni)
Last edited by Seth Milner on Tue Aug 04, 2015 5:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Don't take life too seriously; No one gets out alive
