Gun Legislation

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O Really
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Re: Gun Legislation

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Vrede too wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2023 10:27 am
7-year-old fatally shoots 5-year-old child in eastern Kentucky

Bad 7-year-old. If only there had been a good 7-year-old with a gun there.
... There have been more than 150 unintentional shootings by children in the U.S. so far this year, including three others in Kentucky, resulting in at least 58 deaths and 101 injuries, according to the Everytown for Gun Safety advocacy group.

Kentucky does not have any laws that impose a penalty on those that fail to secure an unattended firearm, according to Giffords Law Center....
:angry-banghead:
Kevin
16 hours ago

The most important thing here is that the parents' Second Amendment rights were NOT violated. We all have to be thankful for that.

Perhaps this can be mentioned at the funeral so that everyone can breathe a sigh of relief and it will help everyone heal.

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Vrede too
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Re: Gun Legislation

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Man who thought he heard an intruder accidentally shot himself, police say
The man told police he thought that he heard someone in his backyard, so he grabbed his gun and went to investigate.


:roll: Probably a racoon, anyhow.

10-year-old shot dead through bedroom wall as mom unloads gun, Georgia cops say

:cry: The only thing that can stop a bad mom with a gun is a good mom with a gun.
Police: Nashville woman says she killed husband due to infidelity

Image

... The shooting occurred on Sunday at the couple's home on 1212 Howard Avenue. Metro Nashville police say 72-year-old Christine Roberts shot and killed her husband 68-year-old Thomas Roberts with a gunshot to the chest while on the front porch.

Roberts reportedly told police that she shot her husband due to him cheating on her. She is charged with criminal homicide....
Guess she never should have robbed the cradle in the first place. :wave:
"Iran’s future belongs to free women, not the mullahs.”
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Vrede too
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by Vrede too »

Vrede too wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2023 10:27 am
7-year-old fatally shoots 5-year-old child in eastern Kentucky

Bad 7-year-old. If only there had been a good 7-year-old with a gun there.
... There have been more than 150 unintentional shootings by children in the U.S. so far this year, including three others in Kentucky, resulting in at least 58 deaths and 101 injuries, according to the Everytown for Gun Safety advocacy group.

Kentucky does not have any laws that impose a penalty on those that fail to secure an unattended firearm, according to Giffords Law Center....
:angry-banghead:
O Really wrote:
Wed Jun 21, 2023 10:49 am
Kevin
16 hours ago

The most important thing here is that the parents' Second Amendment rights were NOT violated. We all have to be thankful for that.

Perhaps this can be mentioned at the funeral so that everyone can breathe a sigh of relief and it will help everyone heal.
:thumbup: PTL.


Karin > Karens.
Federal judge rules Oregon’s tough new gun law is constitutional

A federal judge has ruled Oregon’s voter-approved gun control measure – one of the toughest in the nation – is constitutional.

U.S. District Judge Karin Immergut ruled that banning large capacity magazines and requiring a permit to purchase a gun falls in line with “the nation’s history and tradition of regulating uniquely dangerous features of weapons and firearms to protect public safety," Oregon Public Broadcasting reported.

The decision comes after a landmark U.S. Supreme Court decision on the Second Amendment that has upended gun laws across the country, dividing judges and sowing confusion over what firearm restrictions can remain on the books. It changed the test that lower courts had long used for evaluating challenges to firearm restrictions, telling judges that gun laws must be consistent with the “historical tradition of firearm regulation.”

Oregon voters in November narrowly passed Measure 114, which requires residents to undergo safety training and a background check to obtain a permit to buy a gun.

The legislation also bans the sale, transfer or import of gun magazines with more than 10 rounds unless they are owned by law enforcement or a military member or were owned before the measure’s passage. Those who already own high-capacity magazines can only possess them at home or use them at a firing range, in shooting competitions or for hunting as allowed by state law after the measure takes effect.

Large capacity magazines “are not commonly used for self-defense, and are therefore not protected by the Second Amendment,” Immergut wrote. “The Second Amendment also allows governments to ensure that only law-abiding, responsible citizens keep and bear arms.”

The latest ruling in U.S. District Court is likely to be appealed, potentially moving all the way up to the U.S. Supreme Court.

The Oregon measure’s fate has been carefully watched as one of the first new gun restrictions passed since the Supreme Court ruling last June.
:clap: :-|| NRA/Federalist Society vetting FAIL.

Surprise!
Spoiler:
U.S. District Judge Karin Immergut

... In 1998, Immergut was a Multnomah County deputy district attorney when she went to work for Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr, who was investigating then-President Bill Clinton. Immergut personally questioned Monica Lewinsky in an August 6, 1998, deposition....

U.S. attorney

Immergut was sworn in as interim United States attorney on October 3, 2003, and the United States Senate confirmed her nomination on that same date. She was appointed by President George W. Bush to the position....

She re-registered as a Republican at the beginning of Bush's first term as President ...

Appointed judge by Donald Trump

:---P :happy-cheerleaderkid:
"Iran’s future belongs to free women, not the mullahs.”
-- Tehran student, Nov 2024
“There is no hate like Christian love.”
-- Greg McDonald Jr, Summer 2001
1312. ETTD.

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Vrede too
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Re: Gun Legislation

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When guns are outlawed only serial killer architects will have guns.

Gilgo Beach suspect Rex Heuermann had over 200 guns at his home, police say

:wtf:
1-year-old girl accidentally shot and killed by 3-year-old sibling, authorities say

A 1-year-old girl was accidentally shot and killed Monday by her 3-year-old sibling, who had gained access to an unsecured handgun, authorities said.

The San Diego County Sheriff’s Department said deputies responded to the shooting at a home in Fallbrook, California, on Monday morning.
:cry:
The 1-year-old suffered a head injury in the shooting and was transported to a local hospital, where she was pronounced dead at about 8:30 a.m. Monday, the department said. The child’s name has not been released at this time “out of respect for the family and the fact she is a juvenile,” the department said.
:roll: A 3-year-old doesn't care about her reputation and the ammosexual family deserves no respect.
... As of July 15, so far this year there have been at least 221 unintentional shootings by children in the U.S., resulting in 78 deaths and 151 injuries, according to gun violence prevention organization Everytown for Gun Safety.
:cry: x 229+.
"Iran’s future belongs to free women, not the mullahs.”
-- Tehran student, Nov 2024
“There is no hate like Christian love.”
-- Greg McDonald Jr, Summer 2001
1312. ETTD.

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O Really
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Re: Gun Legislation

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OK, so leaving a kid in a hot car is totally irresponsible, inexcusable, and unimaginably cruel. The charges of aggravated manslaughter, laid immediately, seem appropriate to me.
https://themessenger.com/news/babysitte ... pic%2Fnews

But for liability purposes, how is that different from leaving your gun where a kid can get it and kill somebody or themselves? Oh yeah, NRA and the congresscritters it owns.

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Vrede too
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Re: Gun Legislation

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O Really wrote:
Fri Jul 21, 2023 1:14 am
OK, so leaving a kid in a hot car is totally irresponsible, inexcusable, and unimaginably cruel. The charges of aggravated manslaughter, laid immediately, seem appropriate to me.
https://themessenger.com/news/babysitte ... 33-degrees

But for liability purposes, how is that different from leaving your gun where a kid can get it and kill somebody or themselves? Oh yeah, NRA and the congresscritters it owns.
They seem to be charging more often, but perhaps not with harsh enough charges.

Not sure if this reaches your news feeds. After all, what's one more US school shooting thousands of miles away?

Faculty member shot and killed in a campus building, says University of North Carolina official

The several accounts from the terrified, barricaded students are heartbreaking.
... Oliver Katz, an exchange student from Copenhagen Business School in Denmark, said some students crowded into gym locker rooms to get away from windows while others crouched in corners and sat on the floor, he said. Police evacuated them hours later.

“This never happens where I’m from,” Katz said. “It was intense. But I was a little surprised that other people weren’t panicking that much.”

Katz, who has only been on campus for two weeks, said he’s worried his home university will bring the exchange students home early....
Why do our school kids have to know what "lock down" and "shelter in place" mean? :(
"Iran’s future belongs to free women, not the mullahs.”
-- Tehran student, Nov 2024
“There is no hate like Christian love.”
-- Greg McDonald Jr, Summer 2001
1312. ETTD.

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O Really
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Re: Gun Legislation

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Vrede too wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2023 6:31 pm

Why do our school kids have to know what "lock down" and "shelter in place" mean? :(
Because NRA, silly.

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Vrede too
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by Vrede too »

O Really wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2023 8:07 pm
Vrede too wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2023 6:31 pm

Why do our school kids have to know what "lock down" and "shelter in place" mean? :(
Because NRA, silly.
It was a rhetorical question. Because Amerika, too. Sorry about the UNC news. :(
"Iran’s future belongs to free women, not the mullahs.”
-- Tehran student, Nov 2024
“There is no hate like Christian love.”
-- Greg McDonald Jr, Summer 2001
1312. ETTD.

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O Really
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Re: Gun Legislation

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Vrede too wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2023 8:22 pm

It was a rhetorical question. Because Amerika, too. Sorry about the UNC news. :(
Yeah even the "Southern Part of Heaven" isn't immune. But the additional sad part was that it was the first day of elementary schools and there were some kids just starting kindergarten and first grade who had to hunker in a lock down. Wouldn't want to have to tell them they have to go back to school tomorrow.

Too bad they didn't take out the shooter. Where's the trigger-happy cops when you need one?

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Vrede too
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Re: Gun Legislation

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O Really wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2023 11:02 pm
... Too bad they didn't take out the shooter. Where's the trigger-happy cops when you need one?
Idk, the lockdowns are a shame, but the faculty member might have deserved it. :twisted:
"Iran’s future belongs to free women, not the mullahs.”
-- Tehran student, Nov 2024
“There is no hate like Christian love.”
-- Greg McDonald Jr, Summer 2001
1312. ETTD.

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billy.pilgrim
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Re: Gun Legislation

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O Really wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2023 8:07 pm
Vrede too wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2023 6:31 pm

Why do our school kids have to know what "lock down" and "shelter in place" mean? :(
Because NRA, silly.
But, but blm something something
Trump: “We had the safest border in the history of our country - or at least recorded history. I guess maybe a thousand years ago it was even better.”

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Vrede too
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Re: Gun Legislation

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O Really wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2023 11:02 pm
Vrede too wrote:
Mon Aug 28, 2023 8:22 pm
... Because Amerika, too. Sorry about the UNC news. :(
Yeah even the "Southern Part of Heaven" isn't immune. But the additional sad part was that it was the first day of elementary schools and there were some kids just starting kindergarten and first grade who had to hunker in a lock down. Wouldn't want to have to tell them they have to go back to school tomorrow....
Caitlyn (she/her)
@caitlyn_yaede (managing editor)

The front page of tomorrow's @dailytarheel

I shed many tears while typing up these heart-wrenching text messages sent and received by UNC students yesterday. Our campus was on lockdown for more than three hours.

Beyond proud of this cover and the team behind it.

Image
:cry:
"Iran’s future belongs to free women, not the mullahs.”
-- Tehran student, Nov 2024
“There is no hate like Christian love.”
-- Greg McDonald Jr, Summer 2001
1312. ETTD.

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Vrede too
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by Vrede too »

Vrede too wrote:
Wed May 17, 2023 8:08 pm
O Really wrote:
Sun May 14, 2023 3:41 pm
There's never going to be any meaningful legislation.
I like the idea of stopping calling them "mass shootings" or "mass killings" and refer to them as "Second Amendment Celebrations"
:thumbup: , though Joltin' Joe did sign meaningful legislation a year ago. We need to go much further.
Biden Administration Proposes Major Expansion Of Gun Sale Background Checks
More gun sellers would have to put their buyers through background checks as a result of the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act.


A proposed regulation announced Thursday by the Biden administration would require thousands of gun sellers to register with the federal government and conduct background checks of their customers.

A small part of the bipartisan gun law Congress passed last year broadened the definition of a “gun dealer” as a way of reducing the number of sales that don’t go through the background check system.

President Joe Biden ordered the Justice Department earlier this year to write the regulation so the government could get “as close as we can to universal background checks without new legislation.”

... Under the new definition, a person would be said to be “engaged in the business” of firearms if their principal aim is to profit, “as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection,” the law says. At the time it was drafted, it wasn’t clear how many people would be affected, since it would be up to the ATF to put it through regulation.

According to the text of the ATF’s proposed rulemaking, the broader definition of a gun seller would affect between 24,540 and 328,296 unlicensed dealers. There were 136,563 active federal firearms licensees in 2022, so the ATF is estimating that the regulation could greatly increase their ranks.

... Experts have said the change would not encompass all private gun sales, and Democrats have said they still want to change the law to require universal checks.

Mark Collins, director of federal policy for Brady, a gun control group, said the new regulation would not be tantamount to universal background checks.

“In terms of whether or not it gets us to universal, I think it’s a big step closer to it,” Collins said. “But I would be hesitant to say that it gets us to complete universal without Congress acting.”
I'm sure that loopholes will be exploited and avoidance will be practiced, but it's a step in the right direction. Enforcement will be key.
... The public has 90 days to comment on the regulation before the government can begin to finalize it.

A bipartisan group of senators wrote the 2022 law in response to multiple mass shootings. Its main provisions enhanced background checks for gun buyers under 21, created grants for states to enact “red flag” laws, and provided funds for school safety and mental health services.

Sen. Chris Murphy (D-Conn.), one of the law’s main Democratic authors, praised the proposed regulation on Thursday.

“For too long, the ambiguous definition of what it means to be ‘engaged in the business’ allowed thousands of unlicensed dealers to sell guns without background checks,” Murphy said in a statement, adding that the change will “significantly increase the number of background checks performed and ensure more guns stay out of dangerous hands.”
Go Joltin' Joe Go!
"Iran’s future belongs to free women, not the mullahs.”
-- Tehran student, Nov 2024
“There is no hate like Christian love.”
-- Greg McDonald Jr, Summer 2001
1312. ETTD.


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O Really
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Re: Gun Legislation

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If only those other two boys had been armed.

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Vrede too
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Re: Gun Legislation

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O Really wrote:
Wed Oct 04, 2023 2:13 pm
If only those other two boys had been armed.
:lol: :thumbup: :(

If only there had been a fast food worker around.
viewtopic.php?p=189797#p189797
Vrede too wrote:
Tue Sep 26, 2023 11:14 pm
caught on video
Houston Jack in the Box employee shoots at customers from Florida over missing curly fries: Lawsuit


There was a child onboard, seems that there should have been some jail time for that alone. :naughty:

I don't have an opinion on Jack in the Box liability, but :wtf: . Oh that's right, it's Texas . . . possibly exacerbated by Florida -0-? . Could have easily been the other way around in these gunhappy states. :ateeth:
Hooterville keeping up with the latest trend:
Update: Shooting death reported at McDonald's in Hendersonville owned by Chuck Edwards

The Hendersonville Police Department is investigating a reported homicide that occurred on the morning of Oct. 9 at the McDonald's on Four Seasons Boulevard, according to a news release.

Detectives are investigating a shooting that happened at the restaurant at approximately 10:54 a.m. The McDonald's is owned by Congressman Chuck Edwards.
"Chainsaw" Charlie Taylor > Failed DC QB and DINO Heath Shuler > Traitor Mark Meadows > MadCaw > Chuck Edwards - NC11 represent! :roll:
... The follow-up news release said a McDonald’s manager separated the women, and Reed left the restaurant, returning shortly after, when she was met by the manager and a male employee, identified as Sam Antwan Ivey, 35. During the disturbance, Reed reached out and touched Ivey, who shot the victim with a concealed handgun.
Do you want fries with that, sucka?
Ivey fled the scene in his vehicle, police said.

... Ivey was charged with second-degree murder and possession of a firearm by a felon. He is being held without bond at the Henderson County Detention Facility.

... Edwards, a Republican representing the 11th District, which covers 15 counties including Henderson, owns multiple McDonald's franchises and confirmed the restaurant was one of them.

... A licensed firearm dealer, Edwards has said there should be no new firearms restrictions and that the root of the stunningly high number of shootings in the United States was a mental health crisis.
:wtf: :bs: :obscene-birdiered: Why does he hire armed crazy people then?

Could Edwards possibly be more of a stereotypical villain? RepuQ coronary and mass shooting mogul. :roll: :puke-left:
"Iran’s future belongs to free women, not the mullahs.”
-- Tehran student, Nov 2024
“There is no hate like Christian love.”
-- Greg McDonald Jr, Summer 2001
1312. ETTD.

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Vrede too
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Re: Gun Legislation

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neoplacebo wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 3:55 pm
Hell, depending on who it was and what the situation was, I'd be liable to fire at my own feet and dance around, and then announce that "I can also do that around your own feet or even your head." Then I'd give him a Tucker Carlson giggle just for the hell of it. I suspect even artificial intelligence would run away from that sort of statement. Hard to say.
:D That kind of behavior may fly where you're at, but be warned that if you send your crazy people here the cops will do nothing for days while our citizens will take care of business:
911 calls reveal tragic tale of Jacklyn Reed's final days before she was shot to death at McDonald's

More charges have been brought against a fast-food employee facing second-degree murder for a deadly shooting inside a Hendersonville McDonald’s.

On Monday, Oct. 9, Sam Ivey, 35, was charged with second-degree murder and possession of a firearm by a felon in the shooting death of 30-year-old Jacklyn Reed, who was shot and killed at the McDonald's fast-food restaurant on Four Seasons Boulevard on Monday just before 11 a.m.

... The victim, Jacklyn Reed, is from Johnson City, Tennessee, and detectives continue to investigate the circumstances of how she landed in Hendersonville, possibly as early as Sept. 28, 2023.

“I ask the public to understand that Ms. Reed is a victim," said Hendersonville Police Chief Blair Myhand. "She died because she was shot by a convicted felon illegally carrying a firearm, not because she was homeless or because she may have needed medical intervention.”
:wtf: You don't know her, do you?
"Iran’s future belongs to free women, not the mullahs.”
-- Tehran student, Nov 2024
“There is no hate like Christian love.”
-- Greg McDonald Jr, Summer 2001
1312. ETTD.

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neoplacebo
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by neoplacebo »

Vrede too wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2023 6:21 pm
neoplacebo wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 3:55 pm
Hell, depending on who it was and what the situation was, I'd be liable to fire at my own feet and dance around, and then announce that "I can also do that around your own feet or even your head." Then I'd give him a Tucker Carlson giggle just for the hell of it. I suspect even artificial intelligence would run away from that sort of statement. Hard to say.
:D That kind of behavior may fly where you're at, but be warned that if you send your crazy people here the cops will do nothing for days while our citizens will take care of business:
911 calls reveal tragic tale of Jacklyn Reed's final days before she was shot to death at McDonald's

More charges have been brought against a fast-food employee facing second-degree murder for a deadly shooting inside a Hendersonville McDonald’s.

On Monday, Oct. 9, Sam Ivey, 35, was charged with second-degree murder and possession of a firearm by a felon in the shooting death of 30-year-old Jacklyn Reed, who was shot and killed at the McDonald's fast-food restaurant on Four Seasons Boulevard on Monday just before 11 a.m.

... The victim, Jacklyn Reed, is from Johnson City, Tennessee, and detectives continue to investigate the circumstances of how she landed in Hendersonville, possibly as early as Sept. 28, 2023.

“I ask the public to understand that Ms. Reed is a victim," said Hendersonville Police Chief Blair Myhand. "She died because she was shot by a convicted felon illegally carrying a firearm, not because she was homeless or because she may have needed medical intervention.”
:wtf: You don't know her, do you?
:shock: Damn, that's weird. No, I've never heard of either of those people. I know that McDonalds but the last time I was at one was probably ten years ago at the one on Upward Rd.

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billy.pilgrim
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by billy.pilgrim »

neoplacebo wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:27 am
Vrede too wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2023 6:21 pm
neoplacebo wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 3:55 pm
Hell, depending on who it was and what the situation was, I'd be liable to fire at my own feet and dance around, and then announce that "I can also do that around your own feet or even your head." Then I'd give him a Tucker Carlson giggle just for the hell of it. I suspect even artificial intelligence would run away from that sort of statement. Hard to say.
:D That kind of behavior may fly where you're at, but be warned that if you send your crazy people here the cops will do nothing for days while our citizens will take care of business:
911 calls reveal tragic tale of Jacklyn Reed's final days before she was shot to death at McDonald's

More charges have been brought against a fast-food employee facing second-degree murder for a deadly shooting inside a Hendersonville McDonald’s.

On Monday, Oct. 9, Sam Ivey, 35, was charged with second-degree murder and possession of a firearm by a felon in the shooting death of 30-year-old Jacklyn Reed, who was shot and killed at the McDonald's fast-food restaurant on Four Seasons Boulevard on Monday just before 11 a.m.

... The victim, Jacklyn Reed, is from Johnson City, Tennessee, and detectives continue to investigate the circumstances of how she landed in Hendersonville, possibly as early as Sept. 28, 2023.

“I ask the public to understand that Ms. Reed is a victim," said Hendersonville Police Chief Blair Myhand. "She died because she was shot by a convicted felon illegally carrying a firearm, not because she was homeless or because she may have needed medical intervention.”
:wtf: You don't know her, do you?
:shock: Damn, that's weird. No, I've never heard of either of those people. I know that McDonalds but the last time I was at one was probably ten years ago at the one on Upward Rd.
Let me take this opportunity to boast once again that I have never eaten McDonald's food. Furthermore, I suggest that it was the leftist propaganda found within the nursery rhythm Old McDonald's Farm that caused our acceptance of these Fast Foods initially.
Go into any nursery school in the country. Four year olds think the burger joint is a farm.
Trump: “We had the safest border in the history of our country - or at least recorded history. I guess maybe a thousand years ago it was even better.”

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neoplacebo
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Re: Gun Legislation

Unread post by neoplacebo »

billy.pilgrim wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 8:49 am
neoplacebo wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2023 7:27 am
Vrede too wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2023 6:21 pm
neoplacebo wrote:
Fri May 12, 2023 3:55 pm
Hell, depending on who it was and what the situation was, I'd be liable to fire at my own feet and dance around, and then announce that "I can also do that around your own feet or even your head." Then I'd give him a Tucker Carlson giggle just for the hell of it. I suspect even artificial intelligence would run away from that sort of statement. Hard to say.
:D That kind of behavior may fly where you're at, but be warned that if you send your crazy people here the cops will do nothing for days while our citizens will take care of business:
911 calls reveal tragic tale of Jacklyn Reed's final days before she was shot to death at McDonald's

More charges have been brought against a fast-food employee facing second-degree murder for a deadly shooting inside a Hendersonville McDonald’s.

On Monday, Oct. 9, Sam Ivey, 35, was charged with second-degree murder and possession of a firearm by a felon in the shooting death of 30-year-old Jacklyn Reed, who was shot and killed at the McDonald's fast-food restaurant on Four Seasons Boulevard on Monday just before 11 a.m.

... The victim, Jacklyn Reed, is from Johnson City, Tennessee, and detectives continue to investigate the circumstances of how she landed in Hendersonville, possibly as early as Sept. 28, 2023.

“I ask the public to understand that Ms. Reed is a victim," said Hendersonville Police Chief Blair Myhand. "She died because she was shot by a convicted felon illegally carrying a firearm, not because she was homeless or because she may have needed medical intervention.”
:wtf: You don't know her, do you?
:shock: Damn, that's weird. No, I've never heard of either of those people. I know that McDonalds but the last time I was at one was probably ten years ago at the one on Upward Rd.
Let me take this opportunity to boast once again that I have never eaten McDonald's food. Furthermore, I suggest that it was the leftist propaganda found within the nursery rhythm Old McDonald's Farm that caused our acceptance of these Fast Foods initially.
Go into any nursery school in the country. Four year olds think the burger joint is a farm.
I remember when the first McDonalds came to my town. It was probably the early sixties. The burgers and the fries were really good; sort of a novelty at the time. I've not been to a McDonalds in over a decade. Their food is nothing like I first remembered it.

The only other fast food places I've everr eaten from are Hardee's, Arby's, KFC, and Burger King. Never ate at Sonic, Zaxby's, Bojangles, or any others.

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