Big Brother is Watching You

[O Really]

.... I could just as easily ask you how comparing the NSA to Supsalemgr and Big Insurance is supposed to make us feel any better about the NSA.

And you have. It's all relative. If you walk through the woods, you can worry about being attacked by bears or by mosquitos and getting into poison ivy. Sure, if you got attacked by a bear it would be worse than mosquitos or poison ivy, but the liklihood of your getting attacked by a bear is very small in relation to the chances of getting mosquito bit or poison ivy infested. So when I go to the woods, I'll carry bear spray for possible defense against ursus americanus or redneckus billybobus, but I don't spend a whole lot of time concerned about it. Maine-sized mosquitos, on the other hand, take much more effort and concern to avoid.

[rstrong]

Females often pursue me, if you count mosquitos.

[O Really]

Regular NC/FL mosquitos ignore me. But the Maine/Wisconsin version can suck a moose dry in a few minutes. Actually, I haven't used the bear spray, either. I feel like I should test to make sure I'd know how to use it if needed, but I'm too cheap to waste one. Unless I ran across some teapartiers who would surely make me fear for my life and be forced to defend myself.

[O Really]

Yep, this guy is a real patriot.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nat ... story.html

[Cannonpointer]

If you're hating on snowden, just know that you have compatriots in the sentiment in the teaparty.

[Cannonpointer]

Patriotism is for suckers, anyway. A great place to live will always b loved and a shit hole will always be hated. Protestations of adoration for a fucking country are the stuff of sickness. A hardon for the fatherland is a nazi attribute. This government is our CREATURE, not our master. It is to love US, not vice versa.

This nation's founders were not patriots. Quite the opposite. They were REBELS. They loved liberty, not country. The man who loves his country is a brainwashed moron with serious issues. If I DID wanna love a country, it wouldn't be one that drones civilians in the market place and spies on me, for pete's sake. It won;t be one that takes nude pictures of my mother when she flies on an airplane. It won't be one that taxes me 15% BEFORE I PAY A PENNY IN INCOME TAX, while only taxing Romney 10%, IN TOTAL. It won't be one that confiscates my wealth and just hands it over to Wall Street banksters.

What kind of sick fuck loves America? Of all the countries in all the world to love, if ya just GOTTA love a fucking COUNTRY...

[rstrong]

What kind of sick fuck loves America?

That would be me.

I do have a few issues with it. But I'm that kind.

[Cannonpointer]

Cannonpointer wrote:What kind of sick fuck loves America?

rstrong wrote:

"That would be me.

I do have a few issues with it. But I'm that kind."

Well, you depart from the nation's founders in that heresy, that illness, sir.

They loved liberty. You love country.

No wonder we're in such a mess. People like you, loving the wrong damned thing.

[rstrong]

Well, you depart from the nation's founders in that heresy, that illness, sir.

They loved liberty. You love country.

No wonder we're in such a mess. People like you, loving the wrong damned thing.

America is more than a country. It's a set of principles. The nation's founders made it that way, in a way that no other country can match. We both have issues with it when it wanders away from those principles.

BTW, the nation is much less of a mess than some think. This post pretty much makes the case for the country being a mess. But check out my response further down the page.

As a computer tech, programmer and space program buff, I spent more time on those issues. And it was late at night. But there's so much that could be added.

(Even in the computer sciences field for example. I'd like to add cloud services to the response. Fully dominated by American services like Amazon AWS, Windows Azure, Apple's cloud, Google's cloud, IBM's cloud, etc. And private clouds, fully dominated by American hypervisors like VMware and Hyper-V.)

[Cannonpointer]

An honest, rational man loves his immediate family first. Period. Then his extended family. Then his community. Then his state. Then his country. Then his planet. Then his - you get the drift.

Nationalism, often called patriotism, is a sickness that leads to murders. You need to be inoculated, sir. Loving a country is an illness. Loving liberty is not. One cannot love both.

If one loves his country ONLY TO THE DEGREE THAT IT PROTECTS HIS LIBERTY, and hates his country to the degree that it does not, then he may be considered rational. Otherwise, he is mentally ill.

[rstrong]

An honest, rational man loves his immediate family first. Period. Then his extended family. Then his community. Then his state. Then his country. Then his planet. Then his - you get the drift.

Nonsense. Frankly you're arguing in favor of the nationalism you otherwise argue against. There's little reason to put state before country, or community before planet. And just as much if not more reason to do the opposite.

Nationalism, often called patriotism, is a sickness that leads to murders.

Or away from them. The notion that everyone is created equal, that everyone has a right to freedom and happiness, that everyone has basic rights, was baked into American nationalism by America's founders.

Sure, it took the country a while to get it right, but it got it right.

That applies to foreign policy too. At the end of WWII, America's economy was going full throttle when most others were destroyed. America had a massive and growing military might when most others were decimated. It had thermonukes when no-one else did. It was in a far better position to take over the world than any other nation or empire, ever. It didn't even try.

On 9/10, Afghanistan was facing famine because of a drought and half the population was living in refugee camps in Pakistan or showing up in large numbers on the shores of Indonesia and Australia. 80% of the foreign aid - mostly food - was coming from America. America wasn't just sending more than any Muslim country. Or more than ANY country. It was sending five times more aid than the rest of the planet COMBINED. To a country that was swearing to destroy America, even before the events of the next day.

[Cannon Pointer]

You must be drunk. Just because we did not colonize old school does not mean that we did not colonize economically (new school). How in the world do you explain Central America's poverty, living as they do in such close proximity to such a generous and wealthy neighbor?

Be very careful, because if YOU say corruption, Then I am gonna ask you to tell me the origin of the term "banana republic."

What you are spouting is romantic nonsense. Our corporatocracy has sicced the military on tiny Central America dozens of times. Nicaragua alone has been invaded 7 times in the last century. And then there are the proxy wars, the overthrows, the bribery. You are spouting pure drivel.

Explain our overthrow of the democratically elected, western-friendly, non-theocratic government of the republic of iran in 1954, IN THE CONTEXT OF THIS TWADDLE, sir. Explain the rape of nuns an the murder of priests by mercs trained at the School of the Americas, in the context of this twaddle.

[rstrong]

How in the world do you explain Central America's poverty, living as they do in such close proximity to such a generous and wealthy neighbor?

So..... You think that America should have used its military might and FORCED them to shape up?

Or do you think that America should have dumped wealth on them? Most of these were dictatorships or democracies in name only. Show me a country that's living in horrible poverty, and I'll show you a country with horrible leaders. To dump wealth on them would have been to dump wealth on the dictators, corrupt officials and death squads you complain about. To avoid that would have meant taking direct control of those countries. In other words, invading, occupying and dictating.

What you CAN do, is encourage trade and business with such countries. This sends more of your wealth to business owners and their employees. NOT A LOT to the employees, but it's a start. And once those business owners find that dealing with you is profitable, you can start adding your ethical rules to the contracts. That wasn't how it was done in the 1950s, but it's entirely common now.

Or on a larger scale: America dealt with Russia in the 1950s by pointing thermonukes at them. Mutual Assured Destruction. Decades later it dealt with China by opening trade with them. LOTS of trade. Mutual Assured Destruction of a different kind: China can't hurt the US without destroying its own economy. Personally, I think this is a big improvement.

[rstrong]

BTW, About half the nuclear fuel used in American reactors is from recycled Russian nuclear warheads.

Strategy Page: Russian Nukes Light Up America

The US helped Russia dismantle 20,000 Soviet nuclear warheads. It bought most of the nuclear material extracted after it was processed (diluted) it into lower power plant grade material. Russia is sending the last 500 tons of this material to the United States before the end of the year.

If you're on the right, you may hold this as an example of "Success is the best form of revenge."

If you're on the left, you may hold this as one truly enlightened example of using diplomacy and enterprise rather than bombing, to reduce the risks that America faces.

Either way, it's an example of how America is awesome.

[O Really]

Patriotism is for suckers, anyway. A great place to live will always b loved and a shit hole will always be hated. Protestations of adoration for a fucking country are the stuff of sickness. A hardon for the fatherland is a nazi attribute. This government is our CREATURE, not our master. It is to love US, not vice versa.

This nation's founders were not patriots. Quite the opposite. They were REBELS. They loved liberty, not country. The man who loves his country is a brainwashed moron with serious issues. If I DID wanna love a country, it wouldn't be one that drones civilians in the market place and spies on me, for pete's sake. It won;t be one that takes nude pictures of my mother when she flies on an airplane. It won't be one that taxes me 15% BEFORE I PAY A PENNY IN INCOME TAX, while only taxing Romney 10%, IN TOTAL. It won't be one that confiscates my wealth and just hands it over to Wall Street banksters.

What kind of sick fuck loves America? Of all the countries in all the world to love, if ya just GOTTA love a fucking COUNTRY...

What a total crock of shit. Loving or hating the place you live (residence area) is different from patriotism. By definition, "patriotism" only applies to a country. And certainly some may use the concept of patriotism to express their bigotry, their cruel streaks, their ignorance, or their fear. But that's their baggage. Not the fault of the term or concept. Being patriotic doesn't translate into "love it or leave it." It doesn't mean you can't object to or oppose things. It does, however, mean that you identify as part of a particular tribe (as humans have done for thousands of years), and that you don't willfully do anything that will be harmful to your tribe.

I can't believe I'm the one defending "patriotism" here. I don't even consider myself particularly patriotic in the usual sense. My mum's side of the family are all Brits. I've lived happily in Europe, and can think of a fairly long list of countries I would be happy to live. But bottom line, I'm an American, and find many more good things than bad about the United States. I'd be even happier if there were no teabaggers and right-wing loons with any power, but the fact that such idiots are tolerated, and that most people get a reasonable chance at equality under the law and have a level of personal freedom and economic level toward the top of the world heap is fundamentally a good thing.

I'm not down on Snowden because he disagrees with US policy or practices. I'm down on him because he stole and disclosed information that he knew or should have known would be harmful to the US, of which I'm a citizen.

[O Really]

O Really, the counter argument would be that Snowden stole and disclosed information that exposed the harm the NSA is doing to the US, its principles and its citizens, and that most of those citizens are glad to know it.

Of course.
And we believe those scout leaders in Goblin Valley had the best interest of all the visitors at heart when they said, "Some little kid was about ready to walk down here and die," the cameraman continues. "Glenn saved his life by getting the boulder out of the way. So, it's all about saving lives here at Goblin Valley."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/1 ... 22488.html

Sure looks believable to me.

Now it may be that the scout leaders and Snowden honestly and sincerely believed their versions. I'd rather let the evidence of actual damage speak for itself and leave analysis of motivation to the shrinks.

[O Really]

. His acts do have to be taken for what they uniquely are. .

Oh, I don't think they're all that unique. People have stolen information for centuries. Church of Scientology even had an Operation Snow White involving organized theft of government documents.

[Cannonpointer]

What a total crock of shit. Loving or hating the place you live (residence area) is different from patriotism. By definition, "patriotism" only applies to a country. And certainly some may use the concept of patriotism to express their bigotry, their cruel streaks, their ignorance, or their fear. But that's their baggage. Not the fault of the term or concept. Being patriotic doesn't translate into "love it or leave it." It doesn't mean you can't object to or oppose things. It does, however, mean that you identify as part of a particular tribe (as humans have done for thousands of years), and that you don't willfully do anything that will be harmful to your tribe.

There are no tribes with 300 million people in them. Your TRIBE is your local community. You are making my argument FOR me: It is sickness to wax mushy over a CONCEPT. It is HEALTHY to wax mushy over your TRIBE. You SHOULD love your tribe - if you don't, then you're a sociopath. That is why local rule is all important: thinking globally, acting locally.

Loving one's country is a corruption of loving one's tribe, not a manifestation or example. One has to accept one's country, make elbow room for it, in order to get along. But one's natural affections should be for the streams and creeks, stores and shops, people and places in one's local community. Home is where the heart SHOULD be, not Washington DC (unless you live there).

Distinctions. They make all the difference. Your failure to distinguish WHAT IS YOUR TRIBE has led to muddy thinking, in critical times.

[Cannonpointer]

I can't believe I'm the one defending "patriotism" here. I don't even consider myself particularly patriotic in the usual sense. My mum's side of the family are all Brits. I've lived happily in Europe, and can think of a fairly long list of countries I would be happy to live. But bottom line, I'm an American, and find many more good things than bad about the United States. I'd be even happier if there were no teabaggers and right-wing loons with any power, but the fact that such idiots are tolerated, and that most people get a reasonable chance at equality under the law and have a level of personal freedom and economic level toward the top of the world heap is fundamentally a good thing.

And the price of rice in China saw a sharp drop today, thanks to record yields on the banks of the Yallow River.

Patriotism remains an illness if every word of that^^^ is true. It comments not a whit on my thesis.

[Cannonpointer]

How in the world do you explain Central America's poverty, living as they do in such close proximity to such a generous and wealthy neighbor?

So..... You think that America should have used its military might and FORCED them to shape up?

No I think we should NOT have used our might to PUT them in bondage. Google "banana republic." Our military, time and time and time again - 7 times in Nicaragua alone, last century, - has toppled functioning democracies in Central America and installed dictators in order to enslave the people to the American Corporatocracy. That is not an opinion. It is historical fact, documented so that any educated person knows it - unless they are living in a romantic fantasy bubble of propaganda and talking points - in your case, "feeeeling" points.

Explain the mere ADVENT of the phrase banana republic, without indicting the United States. Go ahead. Explain that phrase's EXISTENCE, without indicting this country.

I'll wait right here.