Big Brother is Watching You

[O Really]

Frankly I don't believe the premise.

It's been shown time and again that massive layoffs INCREASE stock prices. I highly doubt that "publicly disclosing information" that a company is "treating union employees badly, albeit legally" will cause them to lose a contract. It sounds like a convenient way for the company to blame someone else.

It's a hypothetical, rstrong - I made that part up. I could have made up enough details to make it more realistic, but the point is the same.

[O Really]

Given that SC made its bed by being hostile to worker rights, it seems fair and reasonable to me.

It might - but consider: those aren't actually worker "rights" in places like SC. Many years ago, textile industry search for lower wages and weaker or non-existent unions led them to places like NC. Some of the textile companies were scum, but there were also some like Celanese, who offered pay above market and really good benefits. Some did that to avoid unions, and in so doing rode the backs of union members in the past, but overall, they were good employers, providing good jobs and helping the economy. So now a few decades later, the sweat-sucking employers have moved on to lower Bumphuck leaving closed up mills, only a few of which get turned into malls and condos, and towns with no jobs or prospects.

Were the years of prosperity worth becoming District 12? If you were a Celanese employee in the 70's who worked there long enough to earn a good living and a nice retirement, you might think so. Some might believe long term life would have been better if the industry had stayed away.

[rstrong]

It's a hypothetical, rstrong - I made that part up. I could have made up enough details to make it more realistic, but the point is the same.

To be a realistic comparison with Snowden, your story wouldn't stop at Boeing abusing employees "albeit legally." It would have managers at Boeing clearly and systematically breaking the law, and lying to Congress about it, and even lying to their own CEO about it.

[O Really]

It's a hypothetical, rstrong - I made that part up. I could have made up enough details to make it more realistic, but the point is the same.

To be a realistic comparison with Snowden, your story wouldn't stop at Boeing abusing employees "albeit legally." It would have managers at Boeing clearly and systematically breaking the law, and lying to Congress about it, and even lying to their own CEO about it.

Much of that lying (other than maybe to Congress) occurs in probably the majority of companies operating in the US, more in some industries than others, of course, but still...

[Boatrocker]

He's taking upon himself the interests of workers everywhere, too.

That was my feeling.

[Boatrocker]

Frankly I don't believe the premise.

It's been shown time and again that massive layoffs INCREASE stock prices. I highly doubt that "publicly disclosing information" that a company is "treating union employees badly, albeit legally" will cause them to lose a contract. It sounds like a convenient way for the company to blame someone else.

True dat.

[O Really]

Frankly I don't believe the premise.

It's been shown time and again that massive layoffs INCREASE stock prices. I highly doubt that "publicly disclosing information" that a company is "treating union employees badly, albeit legally" will cause them to lose a contract. It sounds like a convenient way for the company to blame someone else.

True dat.

I made that part up, dammit! I'm just saying assume - for the sake of the story - that he disclosed something that would cause loss of contract, etc. IRL of course they would blame someone else. Look at the finger-pointing with the Dreamliner batteries.

[Boatrocker]

Frankly I don't believe the premise.

It's been shown time and again that massive layoffs INCREASE stock prices. I highly doubt that "publicly disclosing information" that a company is "treating union employees badly, albeit legally" will cause them to lose a contract. It sounds like a convenient way for the company to blame someone else.

True dat.

I made that part up, dammit! I'm just saying assume - for the sake of the story - that he disclosed something that would cause loss of contract, etc. IRL of course they would blame someone else. Look at the finger-pointing with the Dreamliner batteries.

Actually, it has been true more often than not in the last 20 years. I have seen it.

[rstrong]

I'm just saying assume - for the sake of the story - that he disclosed something that would cause loss of contract, etc.

So forget Boeing laying off 14,862 workers while increasing executive pay by 31 percent to $41.9 million for its top five executives during 2008-2010, despite $Billions in profit.

A better example, would be if word got out that Boeing didn't pay taxes during 2008–2010, instead getting $178 million in tax rebates, despite making a profit of $9.7 billion. And if that were explained by their $52.29 million spent on lobbying during that time. They'd never get another government contract.

If the person who got the word out was a Boeing employee, he might be considered a devil by some.

In a fantasy world where Boeing wouldn't get another government contract, that is.

[O Really]

In one sense, I can say you guys have no imagination. A hypothetical doesn't have to be accurate in all details. If I say "A guy got convicted of murder he didn't commit" I don't have to recount the whole trial that got us there. On the other hand, your penchant for reality regarding Boeing (picked solely to add some local color to the story), does add to the point. Do you think the workers, the economy of Seattle and Charleston, as well as world fliers would be better off if Boeing got put out of business for its sins or at least the sins of its execs?

[rstrong]

Do you think the workers, the economy of Seattle and Charleston, as well as world fliers would be better off if Boeing got put out of business for its sins or at least the sins of its execs?

Do you think that Boeing should be able to commit any crime it wants, by holding it's workers and the economy of Seattle and Charleston hostage?

If you repeatedly get caught embezzling at work, the "firing and/or jailing me would be bad for my wife and kids" defense only works so many times. If at all.

[Boatrocker]

. . . Do you think the workers, the economy of Seattle and Charleston, as well as world fliers would be better off if Boeing got put out of business for its sins or at least the sins of its execs?

Do you really think it's better if Boeing is allowed to piss in the face of whomever it chooses, as long as it provides employment that pumps money into local economies? We are batting about moral dilemmas.

The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas

[Cannonpointer]

. . . Do you think the workers, the economy of Seattle and Charleston, as well as world fliers would be better off if Boeing got put out of business for its sins or at least the sins of its execs?

Do you really think it's better if Boeing is allowed to piss in the face of whomever it chooses, as long as it provides employment that pumps money into local economies? We are batting about moral dilemmas.

The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas

It's called kneeling to the corporatocracy, and it is a habit of right wingers who cannot distinguish between capitalism and free enterprise, and who cannot distinguish between parasitism and contribution.

Just imagine - the vast majority of these folks on the right believe that after a 30 year, willy-nilly deregulation binge that has landed our nation PRECISELY where it was when those regulations were adopted to PREVENT us revisiting this shameful era of our financial history, what will cure us is MORE DEREGULATION.

[O Really]

I won't speak for the others but how is it a lack of imagination to suggest that a working class hero has a positive impact beyond some negative local effects? If Boeing got put out of business for its sins the demand for aircraft would still exist, workers somewhere would still build them, and their bosses would hesitate before committing the same sins.

The "lack of imagination" had to do with refusing to accept the conditions of the hypothetical (guy discloses information that causes loss of contracts and jobs) without nit-picking it to death with real-life details.

But to your question - it is true that corporations come and go, and when one goes, somebody else often picks up the market, if the market hasn't changed so much as to be gone. A lot of the impact is dependent on how, when, and under what circumstances the belly-upping occurred. For example, I spent a year or so in the high-rise dungeon of ITT's former headquarters at 320 Park, grunting over compliance issues with the long list of companies they controlled. It was an empire, fershure, and a heartless, souless, Geneen-archy. That version of the company is now gone, to the betterment of the world. But they didn't just go out of business. They sold off companies, consolidated, changed focus, became something else. That's different from a company with the economic impact of Boeing just being run out of business. Sure, Seattle has Microsoft now, but in the early 70's Boeing was it. Then hard times hit the company town when "Boeing went from 83,700 employees in 1968 to 20,750 in 1971. Each unemployed Boeing employee cost at least one other job, and unemployment rose to 14 percent, the highest in the United States. Housing vacancy rates rose to 16 percent from 1 percent in 1967. A billboard appeared near the airport "Will the last person leaving SEATTLE- Turn out the lights"

So no, I don't favor running them out of business. I do favor regulation, harsh penalties for evil-doers, and close over-sight.

[O Really]

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013 ... snhp&pos=1

The officials said this attack is expected to follow the usual pattern of several other Israeli strikes against Syrian missiles that were apparently on their way to Hezbollah –neither the Israelis, Syrians nor Hezbollah are likely to acknowledge the missiles ever existed or the strike ever occurred.

Nothing has changed in 40 years. Guess who knows for sure they did it.

[neoplacebo]

I give up.

[O Really]

So Snowden wants to tell Germany about espionage in exchange for being freed of espionage charges. Homey don't play that.
http://news.msn.com/world/snowden-seeks ... us-charges

[O Really]

Uh-uh, monitoring of 35 world leaders, many of them allies, does not happen on "automatic pilot".

Undoubtedly not. But your point is? Simply to demonstrate that government leaders lie about intelligence activities? What - you've never even watched a Bond or Bourne film?

[O Really]

Call me an idealist but I still feel a little shock when they lie so blatantly and stupidly.

OK, "idealist," but that's a major understatement, m'friend.

[O Really]

Sacco, Vanzetti, and Snowden. Political victims of the Man. Or maybe some of them.