Tales from IT

[O Really]

You need to get Kellyanne to provide some alternate facts. It wasn't lira, it was euros. And a euro was worth about a half CAD at the time, so they owe you more money.

[Vrede too]

If you're the only one that can and will fix it, sounds like an opportunity for a "bonus" to me.

[JTA]

The joys of working with offshore dev:

- offshore dev works on a project. It's fucked up (who would've guessed!?)
- deadline is imminent. I have to fix their issue.
- I fix issue.
- Now that issue is fixed, other unrelated/somewhat related issues are uncovered.
- "JTA, look at all the issues you caused with your fix"
- Offshore testers "these problems only happened after JTAs fix"
- I revert my fix, nope. My change had nothing to do with it. These were there from the very beginning. It's evident just by looking at the code. I look at code. Yep. I see what offshore dev did wrong.
- Reply to all - "I reverted my changes, these issues were still present. My fix didn't cause it. These issues were present in the original implementation and are unrelated to my fix. Do not reject my fix."
- Boss man - why would they have reported it working then?

BECAUSE OUR OFFSHORE DEV/TESTERS ARE LIARS! Constant deflection.

Fuck!

Whelp. The time for being nice to offshore is over

[Boatrocker]

The joys of working with offshore dev:

- offshore dev works on a project. It's fucked up (who would've guessed!?)
- deadline is imminent. I have to fix their issue.
- I fix issue.
- Now that issue is fixed, other unrelated/somewhat related issues are uncovered.
- "JTA, look at all the issues you caused with your fix"
- Offshore testers "these problems only happened after JTAs fix"
- I revert my fix, nope. My change had nothing to do with it. These were there from the very beginning. It's evident just by looking at the code. I look at code. Yep. I see what offshore dev did wrong.
- Reply to all - "I reverted my changes, these issues were still present. My fix didn't cause it. These issues were present in the original implementation and are unrelated to my fix. Do not reject my fix."
- Boss man - why would they have reported it working then?

BECAUSE OUR OFFSHORE DEV/TESTERS ARE LIARS! Constant deflection.

Fuck!

Whelp. The time for being nice to offshore is over

Engineering companies dealing with detailers in India and China suffer thru a very similar process. Oh, the stories . . . .

[JTA]

The joys of working with offshore dev:

- offshore dev works on a project. It's fucked up (who would've guessed!?)
- deadline is imminent. I have to fix their issue.
- I fix issue.
- Now that issue is fixed, other unrelated/somewhat related issues are uncovered.
- "JTA, look at all the issues you caused with your fix"
- Offshore testers "these problems only happened after JTAs fix"
- I revert my fix, nope. My change had nothing to do with it. These were there from the very beginning. It's evident just by looking at the code. I look at code. Yep. I see what offshore dev did wrong.
- Reply to all - "I reverted my changes, these issues were still present. My fix didn't cause it. These issues were present in the original implementation and are unrelated to my fix. Do not reject my fix."
- Boss man - why would they have reported it working then?

BECAUSE OUR OFFSHORE DEV/TESTERS ARE LIARS! Constant deflection.

Fuck!

Whelp. The time for being nice to offshore is over

Engineering companies dealing with detailers in India and China suffer thru a very similar process. Oh, the stories . . . .

When I first began working with offshore dev, I'd try to be helpful whenever they asked questions. Typically, a person would give something their all until they reach a stopping point, then ask for help. That's how it works in most places I've worked at. But not with dev in India.

They take advantage of kindness at the workplace, and won't hesitate to try to trick you into doing their work. I eventually caught on to what they were doing and stopped being unnecessarily helpful.

The work they produce is mostly garbage. If any critical thinking and creativity is needed to come up with a solution, they fail horribly without our guidance.

[Boatrocker]

The joys of working with offshore dev:

- offshore dev works on a project. It's fucked up (who would've guessed!?)
- deadline is imminent. I have to fix their issue.
- I fix issue.
- Now that issue is fixed, other unrelated/somewhat related issues are uncovered.
- "JTA, look at all the issues you caused with your fix"
- Offshore testers "these problems only happened after JTAs fix"
- I revert my fix, nope. My change had nothing to do with it. These were there from the very beginning. It's evident just by looking at the code. I look at code. Yep. I see what offshore dev did wrong.
- Reply to all - "I reverted my changes, these issues were still present. My fix didn't cause it. These issues were present in the original implementation and are unrelated to my fix. Do not reject my fix."
- Boss man - why would they have reported it working then?

BECAUSE OUR OFFSHORE DEV/TESTERS ARE LIARS! Constant deflection.

Fuck!

Whelp. The time for being nice to offshore is over

Engineering companies dealing with detailers in India and China suffer thru a very similar process. Oh, the stories . . . .

When I first began working with offshore dev, I'd try to be helpful whenever they asked questions. Typically, a person would give something their all until they reach a stopping point, then ask for help. That's how it works in most places I've worked at. But not with dev in India.

They take advantage of kindness at the workplace, and won't hesitate to try to trick you into doing their work. I eventually caught on to what they were doing and stopped being unnecessarily helpful.

The work they produce is mostly garbage. If any critical thinking and creativity is needed to come up with a solution, they fail horribly without our guidance.

Sounds about right. Indians won't do anything on their own initiative; they want you to tell them exactly how, to the extent that you have to detail it for them. Chinese aren't quite that bad- they will learn from a few examples and then apply that to other work, without bothering you with 40 more Requests For Information. I think the whole initiative thing is cultural with them. With the Indians, it's all about fucking you out of cash. I guess that's racist . . . .

[JTA]

The joys of working with offshore dev:

- offshore dev works on a project. It's fucked up (who would've guessed!?)
- deadline is imminent. I have to fix their issue.
- I fix issue.
- Now that issue is fixed, other unrelated/somewhat related issues are uncovered.
- "JTA, look at all the issues you caused with your fix"
- Offshore testers "these problems only happened after JTAs fix"
- I revert my fix, nope. My change had nothing to do with it. These were there from the very beginning. It's evident just by looking at the code. I look at code. Yep. I see what offshore dev did wrong.
- Reply to all - "I reverted my changes, these issues were still present. My fix didn't cause it. These issues were present in the original implementation and are unrelated to my fix. Do not reject my fix."
- Boss man - why would they have reported it working then?

BECAUSE OUR OFFSHORE DEV/TESTERS ARE LIARS! Constant deflection.

Fuck!

Whelp. The time for being nice to offshore is over

Engineering companies dealing with detailers in India and China suffer thru a very similar process. Oh, the stories . . . .

When I first began working with offshore dev, I'd try to be helpful whenever they asked questions. Typically, a person would give something their all until they reach a stopping point, then ask for help. That's how it works in most places I've worked at. But not with dev in India.

They take advantage of kindness at the workplace, and won't hesitate to try to trick you into doing their work. I eventually caught on to what they were doing and stopped being unnecessarily helpful.

The work they produce is mostly garbage. If any critical thinking and creativity is needed to come up with a solution, they fail horribly without our guidance.

Sounds about right. Indians won't do anything on their own initiative; they want you to tell them exactly how, to the extent that you have to detail it for them. Chinese aren't quite that bad- they will learn from a few examples and then apply that to other work, without bothering you with 40 more Requests For Information. I think the whole initiative thing is cultural with them. With the Indians, it's all about fucking you out of cash. I guess that's racist . . . .

Yeah this lines up with my experiences. The Chinese people I work with are alright. Funny thing is, my Indian boss (born and raised in India mind you) was the one who told us to basically be mean and unforgiving to our offshore indian co-workers else they'll try to screw you into doing their work and taking the fall for them.

It's tough, because I really dislike being a dick head to people, but working on the corporate world has taught me that it really is true that the sociopaths and narcissists have a leg up in succeeding in the corporate world.

[rstrong]

Years ago I read one of physicist Richard Feynman's books. He described his experience briefly teaching in South America.

His complaint was that the school system had students learn entirely by rote. Memorizing the facts without any thought to what facts meant. They were not, in his opinion, learning physics at all.

[Vrede too]

... I guess that's racist . . . .

Probably, unless you know what management constraints and expectations, US and Indian, the Indian workers are operating under. Also, why expect output equivalent to your own from people making 1/5 or whatever what you are?

[JTA]

... I guess that's racist . . . .

Probably, unless you know what management constraints and expectations, US and Indian, the Indian workers are operating under. Also, why expect output equivalent to your own from people making 1/5 or whatever what you are?

Amongst developers, it's widely known that in most occasions, devs in India produce sub standard code.

Of course, there are exceptions.

Getting paid 1/5 of their American counterparts isn't an excuse for poor work given differences in cost of living. Developers in Greenville make less than those in silicon valley.

[Vrede too]

... Amongst developers, it's widely known that in most occasions, devs in India produce sub standard code....

I'm not saying otherwise. Rather, my question is about what has led to that. Are the Indians truly inferior or have the bosses created the conditions that make it seem that way?

... Getting paid 1/5 of their American counterparts isn't an excuse for poor work given differences in cost of living. Developers in Greenville make less than those in silicon valley.

Partly true, but I'll bet that the difference between a Silicon Valley workers' financial quality of life and yours is far, far less than the difference between yours and the Indians you're discussing.

[rstrong]

...or have the bosses created the conditions that make it seem that way?

That's what I was getting at with my comment about school systems. Workers where they learn by rote tend to be less able that those where there's more reasoning and deduction taught. Dunno if that applies to India though.

[Boatrocker]

... I guess that's racist . . . .

Probably, unless you know what management constraints and expectations, US and Indian, the Indian workers are operating under. Also, why expect output equivalent to your own from people making 1/5 or whatever what you are?

I don't. WE don't choose the detailer- the client does. Purely on the basis of price.

[Boatrocker]

... Amongst developers, it's widely known that in most occasions, devs in India produce sub standard code....

I'm not saying otherwise. Rather, my question is about what has led to that. Are the Indians truly inferior or have the bosses created the conditions that make it seem that way?

... Getting paid 1/5 of their American counterparts isn't an excuse for poor work given differences in cost of living. Developers in Greenville make less than those in silicon valley.

Partly true, but I'll bet that the difference between a Silicon Valley workers' financial quality of life and yours is far, far less than the difference between yours and the Indians you're discussing.

Oh, I assume it is not the average hourly salaryman who is naturally a crook. No proof was ever provided (to us), but the receipt of several hundred drawings, a few years ago, produced on AutoCAD's free student version, was alleged by the client to be a result of the chosen detail contractor striking a deal with a crooked school administrator to use his students- for free- to produce drawings, during and after school hours. Again- no proof, and I don't blame any kids caught up in that (the drawings were so awful they had to pay another contractor to redo 100s of them). And an Indian engineer I have known and worked with for 30 years says, very matter of factly, that it IS a cultural imperative with most Indians, over a certain age, anyway, to make it all about the money. These are not stupid or backward people.

[Vrede too]

If I grew up in or at least witnessing the massive poverty of India, I would probably be all about the money, too. My only point here is that we should maybe be careful to place more blame on the global capitalist outsourcing model rather than the workers stuck in it. Garbage in - cost cutting, crappy bosses (here and/or there), crappy clients - garbage out.

[Vrede too]

That's what I was getting at with my comment about school systems. Workers where they learn by rote tend to be less able that those where there's more reasoning and deduction taught. Dunno if that applies to India though.

Our own rightwing prefers "traditional" rote learning over developing critical thinking skills.

[JTA]

The bottom line is, it's because they hate our freedom .

[Vrede too]

They hate us for our steaks.

[JTA]

They hate us for our steaks.

A close Indian friend of mine whom is like a brother to me just turned 30.

He likes beer and metal, so as a bday gift I was going to get him a Viking drinking horn to celebrate him finally becoming a man.

Then I remembered he's Indian and cows are sacred in Hinduism, which is is (he's not religious, he and his wife are atheists, but culturally...), So that might not go down to well. I think he'd be cool with it, but not sure about his family haha.

So scratch that. Oops.

[Vrede too]

A close Indian friend of mine whom is like a brother to me just turned 30.

He likes beer and metal ...

I like the coffin case:



My favorite: