Race, lets make this serious! It is nearly 2013.

[Vrede too]

My cut and paste would be a disservice to the event.

Not sure why you would need to study a comprehensive history, just Google - secession New England

They too asserted state sovereignty for their right to leave the Union. The close vote was greatly influenced by Jackson's victory at New Orleans.

You haven't made a convincing point.

... Secession Becomes Treason

By the time the delegates reached Washington to deliver their proposals, the War of 1812 had ended, thus minimizing the importance of the Hartford Convention. Now that the British were no longer an issue, many Americans turned against New England as a hotbed of treason. Although few argued the legality of secession, many felt that by considering secession in a time of war, the New England Federalists were traitors. As a result, the Federalist Party quickly lost popularity and dissolved.

As time went on, more and more Americans began equating secession with treason, even though they were not necessarily one and the same as the founders had interpreted the Constitution. Southerners began embracing the ideals of the Hartford Convention, and northerners began perceiving them as traitors. This sectional difference helped lead to the Lincoln administration’s war against the southern secession, the most terrible war in American history.

The ass-kicking of the South settled the matter.

[billy.pilgrim]

My cut and paste would be a disservice to the event.

Not sure why you would need to study a comprehensive history, just Google - secession New England

They too asserted state sovereignty for their right to leave the Union. The close vote was greatly influenced by Jackson's victory at New Orleans.

You haven't made a convincing point.

... Secession Becomes Treason

By the time the delegates reached Washington to deliver their proposals, the War of 1812 had ended, thus minimizing the importance of the Hartford Convention. Now that the British were no longer an issue, many Americans turned against New England as a hotbed of treason. Although few argued the legality of secession, many felt that by considering secession in a time of war, the New England Federalists were traitors. As a result, the Federalist Party quickly lost popularity and dissolved.

As time went on, more and more Americans began equating secession with treason, even though they were not necessarily one and the same as the founders had interpreted the Constitution. Southerners began embracing the ideals of the Hartford Convention, and northerners began perceiving them as traitors. This sectional difference helped lead to the Lincoln administration’s war against the southern secession, the most terrible war in American history.

The ass-kicking of the South settled the matter.

I'm not sure why you take such pleasure in that war.

[Vrede too]

You haven't made a convincing point.

... Secession Becomes Treason

The ass-kicking of the South settled the matter.

I'm not sure why you take such pleasure in that war.

Another straw man. Once Fort Sumter was fired on, someone's ass was going to get kicked. Given the two options, I'm okay with the victor.

I take pleasure in slavery and treason being defeated, however that had to happen. Perhaps you've forgotten our original difference of opinion - your criticism of O Really and excuse-making for slavers, their dupes and traitors. How could your bait not get a response?

Not to be in violation of Godwin's Rule, but did you ever wonder why Germans of an age of say 20-70 whose fathers/grandfathers/uncles, etc. fought for Nazi Germany don't ever wear a Nazi T-shirt as rightly representative of their "heritage"? Other than it's illegal in Germany, of course, like the traitor/slaver flag should have been in the US since 1866 or so. Sure one can make the argument that their Georgia plantation owner ancestors were gallantly fighting to defend their homes against the evil Sherman, but they can't get out of the fundamental fact that Georgia et.al., were in open armed rebellion against the people and the lawful government of the United States.

Slavery aside

Weren't most people more loyal to their own state in the early 1800s?
Wasn't the South fighting a defensive war against an invading federal government?

I think we play a little too loosely with history.

Most southerners weren’t Georgia plantation owners, but many were fighting to protect their homes.

Many more southerners were like Inman in the novel Cold Mountain than were like Ashley in Gone With the Wind.

"Slavery aside"?!

If gullible poor Southerners were duped by well-off ones into fighting to defend slavery - the Southern states said it was the reason for their treason in their secession declarations - with the deceptive story that they were defending "against an invading federal government" that in reality had every right to suppress traitors, how is that not their own fault?

The slavers were the threat to their homes, not the Union.

[billy.pilgrim]

A blockade is an act of war.

True, as is secession. I was just casting about for something SC could have done akin to "sanctions" and short of the "Aggressive war" it chose by bombarding Fort Sumter. What other nonviolent, non-secession actions could the South have selected in order to possibly preserve slavery? Idk.

Why is secession an act of war? That one is new to me.

In the early 1800s, didn't most states believe that they could leave the Union? The South did and New England did.

Why did Lincoln abandoned every Southern fort but Pickens and Sumpter?

As I said,
In the early 1800s, didn't most states believe that they could leave the Union? The South did and New England did.

You haven't refuted this.

[Vrede too]

As I said,
In the early 1800s, didn't most states believe that they could leave the Union? The South did and New England did.

You haven't refuted this.

New England chose to not do it, the legality was discussed there, by the time the South tried it was considered treason - as I've been saying - and I HAVE refuted you by pointing out several times that SCOTUS silence and the South getting its ass kicked settled the question. You're like a southerner that kept fight for 22 months after Pickett's Charge.

[billy.pilgrim]

As I said,
In the early 1800s, didn't most states believe that they could leave the Union? The South did and New England did.

You haven't refuted this.

New England chose to not do it, the legality was discussed there, by the time the South tried it was considered treason - as I've been saying - and I HAVE refuted you by pointing out several times that SCOTUS silence and the South getting its ass kicked settled the question. You're like a southerner that kept fight for 22 months after Pickett's Charge.

So, might makes right?

I'm more comfortable with - war sucks.

[Vrede too]

So, might makes right?

Might plus the courts do define legal "right". That's how it's always been. Anti-slavery/treason makes moral "right", IMO.

I'm more comfortable with - war sucks.

I'm sure that everyone able to see the future would have made different choices. Choosing abolition in 1860 would have been best for the South most of all.

[Vrede too]

Racial slurs are woven deep into the American landscape

The United States is literally covered in racial slurs from Dead Negro Hollow, Tennessee, to Wetback Tank, New Mexico, to Dead Injun Creek, Oregon. At least 1,441 federally recognized places across the nation include slurs in their official name, a Vocativ data analysis of millions of records reveals....

Sigh.

I lived in a town where "Squaw" was part of a nearby place name. It's name was changed without local objection to a non-offensive one over a decade ago.

That would not be Squaw Valley, since it kept its name even after merging with Alpine Meadows.

No, it isn't. The offensive name has been removed from many places, but not yet from others. I imagine it's more difficult where so much has been invested in branding.

From your fingertips O Really . . .

California ski resort changes name to remove offensive word

A popular California ski resort whose name included a derogatory term for Native American women changed its name to Palisades Tahoe Monday. Resort officials had begun searching for a new name last year amid a reckoning over racial injustice.

The renaming of Squaw Valley Ski Resort is one of many efforts nationally to address a history of colonialism and oppression against Native Americans and other people of color that includes removing statues of Christopher Columbus....

It only took 6 years. Next time, use all caps.

Now:

Yellowstone mountain’s ‘derogatory’ name changed

Not exactly a ‘derogatory’ name. Rather, it honors a hateful person.

Mount Doane, a mountain within Yellowstone National Park, has a new name as part of the Department of Interior’s process to remove derogatory terms from the names of federal lands.

In a November order, Secretary of the Interior Deb Haaland, in addition to declaring “squaw” a derogatory term, kickstarted the process to review and replace derogatory names of the nation’s geographic features.

Following a 15-0 vote by the U.S. Board of Geographic Names – the federal body responsible for “maintaining uniform geographic name usage throughout the federal government” – Mount Doane becomes the latest feature to be renamed. It is now named First Peoples Mountain, the National Park Service announced.

The 10,551-foot peak found east of Yellowstone Lake in Wyoming was previously named after U.S. Army Lt. Gustavus Doane....

After a white fur trader was allegedly murdered, Doane led an attack on a band of Piegan Blackfeet, research has found. The Marias Massacre of 1870 left at least 173 American Indians dead, including women, children suffering from smallpox, and elderly Tribal members.

“Doane wrote fondly about this attack and bragged about it for the rest of his life,” NPS explained....

Good.

[billy.pilgrim]

NW Florida has Mulatto Bayou, Mulat Road, Mulatto Bayou Road, Mulat Florida and the Mulat Fire Department.

[Vrede too]

NW Florida has Mulatto Bayou, Mulat Road, Mulatto Bayou Road, Mulat Florida and the Mulat Fire Department.

You're gonna need longer signs for 'Multiracial'.

[billy.pilgrim]

NW Florida has Mulatto Bayou, Mulat Road, Mulatto Bayou Road, Mulat Florida and the Mulat Fire Department.

You're gonna need longer signs for 'Multiracial'.

https://apnews.com/article/b14f915fd50e ... 745183e181

"Leotis McNeil, an administrator at South Florida Community College. ″They could have taken it off years ago. I think the whole country and the whole world should know how this county cultivated racism by keeping ‘Niggertown’ on maps until 1992.″

County Administrator Carl Cool said the change only required having an employee use correction fluid to delete the words from official maps and from about 1,000 maps the county offers for sale.

One county commissioner says the names were too much a part of local history and folklore to erase.

″I don’t think it should be up to us to change history,″ said Commissioner Audrey Vickers. ″There are all kinds of names out there that people don’t like."

[O Really]

Since the area has been returned to wild, I wouldn't have a problem with them marking it something like:
"Once named 'Niggertown' this area was a community established by freed slaves after the Civil War. It was burned to the ground by a white lynch mob around 1900..."

It's possible to report history without honoring the events.

[neoplacebo]

Since the area has been returned to wild, I wouldn't have a problem with them marking it something like:
"Once named 'Niggertown' this area was a community established by freed slaves after the Civil War. It was burned to the ground by a white lynch mob around 1900..."

It's possible to report history without honoring the events.

They are not interested in reporting history (they've even made laws in FL against doing so) but they are keen on glossing over it or ignoring it.

[Vrede too]

Since the area has been returned to wild, I wouldn't have a problem with them marking it something like:
"Once named 'Niggertown' this area was a community established by freed slaves after the Civil War. It was burned to the ground by a white lynch mob around 1900..."

It's possible to report history without honoring the events.

They are not interested in reporting history (they've even made laws in FL against doing so) but they are keen on glossing over it or ignoring it.

I suppose 'Massacred by Whiteyville' is out of the question.

[billy.pilgrim]

Since the area has been returned to wild, I wouldn't have a problem with them marking it something like:
"Once named 'Niggertown' this area was a community established by freed slaves after the Civil War. It was burned to the ground by a white lynch mob around 1900..."

It's possible to report history without honoring the events.

They are not interested in reporting history (they've even made laws in FL against doing so) but they are keen on glossing over it or ignoring it.

Some report says that the following was heard in the meeting:

But, but the name is what's history and we like seeing it on our maps and things cause I personally believe that U.S. Americans are unable to do so because, uh, some, uh, people out there in our nation don't have maps and, uh, then only the black ones get to say the n word but when the map says Niggertown you get to say it out loud and snicker just a bit when you say Niggertown. I believe that our education like such as in South Africa and, uh, the Iraq, everywhere like such as, and, I believe that they should, our education over here in the U.S. should help the U.S., uh, or, uh, should help South Africa and should help the Iraq and the Asian countries, so we will be able to build up our future. For our children

[neoplacebo]

A fine example of the poorly educated (who trump "loves") demonstrating their ignorance. Hilarious and pathetic, which are both traits of the poorly educated.

[O Really]

Some report says that the following was heard in the meeting:

But, but the name is what's history and we like seeing it on our maps and things cause I personally believe that U.S. Americans are unable to do so because, uh, some, uh, people out there in our nation don't have maps ...

[Vrede too]

Some report says that the following was heard in the meeting:

But, but the name is what's history and we like seeing it on our maps and things cause I personally believe that U.S. Americans are unable to do so because, uh, some, uh, people out there in our nation don't have maps ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WALIARHHLII

[billy.pilgrim]

Some report says that the following was heard in the meeting:

But, but the name is what's history and we like seeing it on our maps and things cause I personally believe that U.S. Americans are unable to do so because, uh, some, uh, people out there in our nation don't have maps ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WALIARHHLII

Let's play
Who is Dumber

I'm not sure if she isn't just a tad smarter than the 54,000+ Floridamenandwomen who required a Sheriff to explan that they couldn't shoot a hurricane, in spite of what they had read on a bored Floridaman's Facebook post a barrage of gunshots would not turn the wind.

[Vrede too]

Let's play
Who is Dumber

I'm not sure if she isn't just a tad smarter than the 54,000+ Floridamenandwomen who required a Sheriff to explan that they couldn't shoot a hurricane, in spite of what they had read on a bored Floridaman's Facebook post a barrage of gunshots would not turn the wind.

Were you intentionally paraphrasing her? If not, the resemblance is remarkable.

I'll go with the hurricane shooters. Caitlin Upton was a mere 18 year old beauty queen that got flustered by a question that was itself inaccurate in overstating the number of Americans that can't locate the U.S. on a world map, thus showing that a whole group of researchers, writers and producers were also idiots. She went on to attend Appalachian State and, according to Wiki, Clemson. Idk if she got a degree. She had a successful modeling career, built in part on her Miss Teen notoriety, and now is a mom and sells real estate in tony Brentwood, Los Angeles. I've seen her on TV a few times, she's reasonably articulate and a good sport about her famous flub.

She even looks smart, right?