israel determined to start war

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Vrede too
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Re: israel determined to start war

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Good article, GoCubsGo, sad and doesn't inspire hope.
billy.pilgrim wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:19 pm
GoCubsGo wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:24 am
billy.pilgrim wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 1:40 am
This “Jewish state” idea runs contrary to everything our country stands for, as evidenced by our vocal opposition to Iran’s government.
Were the Iranians/Muslims oppressed and targets of genocide? Does anyone think they don't have a right to exist?
Ask any of the tens of thousands who march twice a year through the Palestinian neighborhoods in Jerusalem throwing rock and chanting Death to All Arabs.
Hundreds of thousands of Muslims have been slaughtered by the US since 1990 and several governments lost their "right to exist". I guess it depends on one's definition of "genocide". This compares with hundreds of dead Israelis and its government has only been successfully attacked by Nuttyyahoo's RW.

Ftr, Iranians are not Arabs.

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GoCubsGo
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Re: israel determined to start war

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billy.pilgrim wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 4:19 pm


Ask any of the tens of thousands who march twice a year through the Palestinian neighborhoods in Jerusalem throwing rock and chanting Death to All Arabs.
Hence the point of the article of "it's complicated". There's blame and wrongdoings going back thousands of years but I think it's pretty undisputed that the Jews have been more and more violently oppressed historically.

Unless both sides make a conscious decision to start with a clean slate with a commitment to living in peace with no more whataboutisms the tinderbox will continue.

Honestly, it would probably take an epic disaster with both sides being affected to scare them into peace. Until then, the fire smolders with occasional flame ups and nothing will really change. The best we can hope for is it continues to stay regional with no third party bad actors stoking the flames into something far worse.
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O Really
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Re: israel determined to start war

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Ya' know how we talk about the several generations removed ancestors of the slaver traitors who just won't give up the war? Well, picture that as a total cultural immersion where literally everybody is indoctrinated from birth to hate the Yankees or Rebels. And add to that enough real violence through the years between the sides that almost everybody at least knows somebody who has relatively recently been directly and personally harmed by the other side. Imagine further that something similar to "reconstruction" has continued for decades. And there you have the Israeli-Arab situation in a nutshell, except it's many times worse than the analogy.

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Vrede too
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Re: israel determined to start war

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Tragically true, O Really.
GoCubsGo wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 7:11 pm
Hence the point of the article of "it's complicated". There's blame and wrongdoings going back thousands of years but I think it's pretty undisputed that the Jews have been more and more violently oppressed historically.
Kinda depends on which side of WW2 one harks back to.
Unless both sides make a conscious decision to start with a clean slate with a commitment to living in peace with no more whataboutisms the tinderbox will continue.
Not sure if that's possible, but something is needed that accepts the history without repeating it.
Honestly, it would probably take an epic disaster with both sides being affected to scare them into peace. Until then, the fire smolders with occasional flame ups and nothing will really change. The best we can hope for is it continues to stay regional with no third party bad actors stoking the flames into something far worse.
We have been that third party bad actor, occasionally invading and massively arming Israel AND momentarily "friendly" Muslims. USA USA USA!

This article is almost a complement to your Jewish families article, a Chicago tragedy:
A 6-Year-Old Boy’s Killing Stunned America. What It Did to His Parents Is Something Else Entirely.
:cry:

Meanwhile:
Israel: White Phosphorus Used in Gaza, Lebanon
Use in Populated Areas Poses Grave Risks to Civilians


Image
Airbursts of artillery-fired white phosphorus fall over the Gaza city port, October 11, 2023.

Israel’s use of white phosphorus in military operations in Gaza and Lebanon puts civilians at risk of serious and long-term injuries, Human Rights Watch said today in releasing a question and answer document on white phosphorus. Human Rights Watch verified videos taken in Lebanon and Gaza on October 10 and 11, 2023, respectively, showing multiple airbursts of artillery-fired white phosphorus over the Gaza City port and two rural locations along the Israel-Lebanon border, and interviewed two people who described an attack in Gaza.

White phosphorus, which can be used either for marking, signaling, and obscuring, or as a weapon to set fires that burn people and objects, has a significant incendiary effect that can severely burn people and set structures, fields, and other civilian objects in the vicinity on fire. The use of white phosphorus in Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas in the world, magnifies the risk to civilians and violates the international humanitarian law prohibition on putting civilians at unnecessary risk.

“Any time that white phosphorus is used in crowded civilian areas, it poses a high risk of excruciating burns and lifelong suffering,” said Lama Fakih, Middle East and North Africa director at Human Rights Watch. “White phosphorous is unlawfully indiscriminate when airburst in populated urban areas, where it can burn down houses and cause egregious harm to civilians.”


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbEJKeNZkCY

... “To avoid civilian harm, Israel should stop using white phosphorus in populated areas,” Fakih said. “Parties to the conflict should be doing everything they can to spare civilians from further suffering.”
:cry: :angry-banghead: :obscene-birdiered:

America takes a small positive step:
In rare action against Israel, U.S. will deny visas to extremist West Bank settlers

... Secretary of State Antony Blinken announced the step after warning Israel last week that President Biden's administration would be taking action over the attacks.

Blinken said the new visa restriction policy "will target individuals believed to have been involved in undermining peace, security, or stability in the West Bank, including through committing acts of violence or taking other actions that unduly restrict civilians' access to essential services and basic necessities." ...
Way too little way too late, Tony and Joe :problem:

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Re: israel determined to start war

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Vrede too wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 8:50 pm


Meanwhile:
Israel: White Phosphorus Used in Gaza, Lebanon
Use in Populated Areas Poses Grave Risks to Civilians


Image
Airbursts of artillery-fired white phosphorus fall over the Gaza city port, October 11, 2023.

Israel’s use of white phosphorus in military operations in Gaza and Lebanon puts civilians at risk of serious and long-term injuries, Human Rights Watch said today in releasing a question and answer document on white phosphorus. Human Rights Watch verified videos taken in Lebanon and Gaza on October 10 and 11, 2023, respectively, showing multiple airbursts of artillery-fired white phosphorus over the Gaza City port and two rural locations along the Israel-Lebanon border, and interviewed two people who described an attack in Gaza.

White phosphorus, which can be used either for marking, signaling, and obscuring, or as a weapon to set fires that burn people and objects, has a significant incendiary effect that can severely burn people and set structures, fields, and other civilian objects in the vicinity on fire. The use of white phosphorus in Gaza, one of the most densely populated areas in the world, magnifies the risk to civilians and violates the international humanitarian law prohibition on putting civilians at unnecessary risk.

“Any time that white phosphorus is used in crowded civilian areas, it poses a high risk of excruciating burns and lifelong suffering,” said Lama Fakih, Middle East and North Africa director at Human Rights Watch. “White phosphorous is unlawfully indiscriminate when airburst in populated urban areas, where it can burn down houses and cause egregious harm to civilians.”

That's part of my bridge too far. How much retribution is enough even for the atrocities that Hamas perpetuated? I get going after those responsible.

But this is fucking crazy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/06/opin ... eaths.html
Eamus Catuli~AC 000000 000101 010202 020303 010304 020405....Ahhhh, forget it, it's gonna be a while.

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Re: israel determined to start war

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Reminiscent of Fallujah
Trump: “We had the safest border in the history of our country - or at least recorded history. I guess maybe a thousand years ago it was even better.”

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Re: israel determined to start war

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GoCubsGo wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:43 pm
That's part of my bridge too far. How much retribution is enough even for the atrocities that Hamas perpetuated? I get going after those responsible.

But this is fucking crazy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/06/opin ... eaths.html
Same article, no paywall:

So Many Child Deaths in Gaza and for What?

:cry: Too much horror for me to select excerpts.
billy.pilgrim wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 10:30 pm
Reminiscent of Fallujah
Or Ramadi :( :puke-left:

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Re: israel determined to start war

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Vrede too wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 11:33 pm
GoCubsGo wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 9:43 pm
That's part of my bridge too far. How much retribution is enough even for the atrocities that Hamas perpetuated? I get going after those responsible.

But this is fucking crazy.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/06/opin ... eaths.html
Same article, no paywall:

So Many Child Deaths in Gaza and for What?

:cry: Too much horror for me to select excerpts.
billy.pilgrim wrote:
Wed Dec 06, 2023 10:30 pm
Reminiscent of Fallujah
Or Ramadi :( :puke-left:
Our tv audiences loved the white phosphorus
Trump: “We had the safest border in the history of our country - or at least recorded history. I guess maybe a thousand years ago it was even better.”

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Re: israel determined to start war

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billy.pilgrim wrote:
Thu Dec 07, 2023 12:22 am
Our tv audiences loved the white phosphorus
The pics are pretty cool . . . if they're not put in context and one turns a blind eye to the implications.

The perpetual victim Israel lobby is relentless. Now even American university presidents are terrorists :roll:

3 Contentious Exchanges at the College Antisemitism Hearing

:puke-left:

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Re: israel determined to start war

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IMO the university presidents screwed up. Of course they likely believe and should have said that any calls for "genocide" are unacceptable. Where the confusion and hence their dithering arose is that no one on US campuses is literally calling for Jewish genocide. Rather, different phrases with very different meanings are interpreted by the perpetual victim Israel lobby as being calls for Jewish genocide. This is the "context" that the university presidents did such a poor job of explaining.

Meanwhile, there's actual genocide happening:
18K dead, the majority women and children
Hundreds of thousands wounded
2/3 of hospitals shuttered, healthcare system near collapse
85% of population displaced
Water, food, shelter, power, sanitation at crisis levels
No end in sight or even being locally proposed
:cry:

Joe and Blinken mouth platitudes, but are steadfastly complicit:
Heavy fighting across Gaza as Israel presses ahead with renewed US military and diplomatic support

... The United States has lent vital support to the offensive once again in recent days, by vetoing United Nations Security Council efforts to end the fighting that enjoyed wide international support, and by pushing through an emergency sale of over $100 million worth of tank ammunition to Israel....

U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres (Portugal), who invoked a rarely-used power last week to call for a cease-fire, said “we are facing a severe risk of collapse of the humanitarian system.”

"The situation is fast deteriorating into a catastrophe with potentially irreversible implications for the Palestinians as a whole and for peace and security in the region," he told a forum in Qatar....
:angry-banghead:


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O Really
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Re: israel determined to start war

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I don't believe for an instant that these university presidents are antisemitic, although they, like me and others I know have some criticism for Israel and its actions. The Penn president was making an effort to listen to the questions and give a thoughtful contextual answer. The villagers just wanted her to admit to being a witch

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Re: israel determined to start war

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I've been quite surprised to read lately in NYT that since 2018 Nuttyahoo has facilitated the transfer of something like 18 million dollars a month from Qatar to Hamas in Gaza. This was apparently a plan by Nuttyahoo to play Hamas off against the Palestinian Authority and then declare he "has no partner" in any of the negotiations toward a two state solution. In effect, he was engaging in efforts to prevent Palestinians from coming together, instead relying on an adversarial relationship between the two Palestinian entities. Looks like it came back to bite him. And for the finale, I'll give an honorable mention to the wingnuts who quacked that the money we gave back to Iran a few months ago (it was their money) would be used to fund Hamas and other Iran backed entities. No need to worry, though, because Nuttyahoo made sure Hamas got all the money it needed from Qatar. HIlarious

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Re: israel determined to start war

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neoplacebo wrote:
Tue Dec 12, 2023 6:14 am
I've been quite surprised to read lately in NYT that since 2018 Nuttyahoo has facilitated the transfer of something like 18 million dollars a month from Qatar to Hamas in Gaza. This was apparently a plan by Nuttyahoo to play Hamas off against the Palestinian Authority and then declare he "has no partner" in any of the negotiations toward a two state solution. In effect, he was engaging in efforts to prevent Palestinians from coming together, instead relying on an adversarial relationship between the two Palestinian entities. Looks like it came back to bite him. And for the finale, I'll give an honorable mention to the wingnuts who quacked that the money we gave back to Iran a few months ago (it was their money) would be used to fund Hamas and other Iran backed entities. No need to worry, though, because Nuttyahoo made sure Hamas got all the money it needed from Qatar. Hilarious
I don't think Sunni Hamas is Iran-backed for the most part.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Int ... al_support
Iran prefers Lebanon-based Shia Hezbollah and is somewhat allied with Fatah and the Palestinian Authority.

It's definitely true that Nuttyahoo wanted any excuse to avoid serious negotiations towards a two state solution. One way of looking at his support for the Qatari suitcases of "humanitarian" cash for Hamas is that it's an irony that "came back to bite" Nuttyahoo. A more cynical view might be that Israeli RWers deliberately ignored months of warnings and sacrificed 1200 Israelis in order to carry out the pre-planned ethnic cleansing that we're now witnessing -0-? Regardless, I have faint hope that Israelis hold Nuttyahoo accountable rather than the war making him stronger. It sure has distracted from his corruption trial and his efforts to cancel Supreme Court independence.


Claudine Gay: Harvard president won't lose job over Congress row

Image

:clap:

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Re: israel determined to start war

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We never held bush accountable and he knew.
Trump: “We had the safest border in the history of our country - or at least recorded history. I guess maybe a thousand years ago it was even better.”

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Re: israel determined to start war

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Israeli military says it mistakenly killed 3 Israeli hostages in battle-torn part of Gaza

... The soldiers mistakenly identified the three Israelis as a threat and opened fire on them, said the army’s chief spokesman, Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari.

He said it was believed that the three had either fled their captors or been abandoned.
They were unarmed and likely had their arms raised. Further proof that the goal is ethnic cleansing, not just defeating Hamas.
... Israeli political and military leaders often say freeing all the hostages is their top aim in the war alongside destroying Hamas.

Still, in seven weeks since ground troops pushed into northern Gaza, troops have not rescued any hostages, though they freed one early in the conflict and have found the bodies of several others.
Pretty fair chance that many others have been killed by the IDF missiles and bombing.
... In southern Gaza, the Al Jazeera television network said an Israeli strike Friday in the city of Khan Younis killed cameraman Samer Abu Daqqa and wounded its chief correspondent in Gaza, Wael Dahdouh. The two were reporting at a school that had been hit by an earlier airstrike when a drone launched a second strike, the network said....

According to the Committee to Protect Journalists, Abu Daqqa is the 64th journalist to be killed since the conflict erupted between Hamas and Israel. That number includes 57 Palestinians, four Israelis and three Lebanese journalists.
Guess who has murdered almost all of these journalists.
... The offensive has killed more than 18,700 Palestinians, according to the Health Ministry in Gaza. Thousands more are missing and feared dead beneath the rubble. The ministry does not differentiate between civilian and combatant deaths. Its latest count did not specify how many were women and minors, but they have consistently made up around two-thirds of the dead in previous tallies.
billy.pilgrim wrote:
Wed Dec 13, 2023 12:10 am
We never held bush accountable and he knew.
As you say:
... U.S. President Joe Biden’s administration has expressed unease over Israel’s failure to reduce civilian casualties and its plans for the future of Gaza, but the White House continues to offer wholehearted support for Israel with weapons shipments and diplomatic backing.
The "expressed unease" is meant exclusively for domestic consumption, not to alter Israel’s actions.
... In meetings with Israeli leaders on Thursday and Friday, U.S. national security adviser Jake Sullivan discussed a timetable for winding down the intense combat phase of the war....

Sullivan also met with Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas to discuss Gaza’s postwar future. A senior U.S. official said one idea being floated is to bring back Palestinian security forces driven from their jobs in Gaza by Hamas in its 2007 takeover.

Any role for Palestinian security forces in Gaza is bound to elicit strong opposition from Israel, which seeks to maintain an open-ended security presence there. Netanyahu has said he will not allow a postwar foothold for the Abbas-led Palestinian Authority, which administers parts of the Israeli-occupied West Bank.

The U.S. has said it eventually wants to see the West Bank and Gaza under a “ revitalized Palestinian Authority " as a precursor to a Palestinian state — an idea soundly rejected by Netanyahu, who leads a right-wing government that is opposed to Palestinian statehood.
As neoplacebo posts above the strategy is to keep the Palestinian Authority impotent. Israel has not hidden this, the US is well aware of it and Joe will not do anything meaningful to deter Israel. Sullivan's efforts are pretense, again solely for domestic consumption.
... Meanwhile, Palestinian support for Hamas has tripled in the West Bank, with a small uptick in Gaza, according to the poll.
Good job, Nuttyahoo.
Still, a majority of Palestinians do not back Hamas, according to the survey.
Good.

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Re: israel determined to start war

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Israeli military wuz skeered. Thought raised hands and yelling "help" meant they were armed.

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Re: israel determined to start war

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O Really wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2023 7:08 pm
Israeli military wuz skeered. Thought raised hands and yelling "help" meant they were armed.
This is what a Hamas terrorist looks like:

Image

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Re: israel determined to start war

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O Really wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2023 7:08 pm
Israeli military wuz skeered. Thought raised hands and yelling "help" meant they were armed.
Not just raised hands and the call for help was in Hebrew.

Israeli hostages killed in Gaza were holding white flag, official says

:o :cry: :angry-cussing: There must be video and/or witnesses that can't be suppressed. Minimal punishment, if any at all, is the IDF habit.
:obscene-birdiered: :obscene-birdiered: :obscene-birdiered:

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Re: israel determined to start war

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Bungalow Bill wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2012 9:28 pm
The Palestinians got screwed back in 1948. They made up about two-thirds of the
population, but received less than half of the land area. Maybe that's why they
didn't want a Jewish state. The Zionists are doing the same thing in the West
Bank as they did in the late 1940s, though at a much more gradual pace. So
the Palestinians will look around in a little while and wonder where their state
went. The Zionists took it away. That's why the only good Zionist is a dead
Zionist. :---P
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