Lowering The Bar

[Wneglia]

But raising self esteem?

[Tertius]

Strange

[Stinger]

Hardly building self-esteem when you tell a group they're too dumb to learn as well as all the other groups.

[O Really]

I'm not saying it's a good idea - in fact I think it's not. But it's not necessarily stupid, either. It's probably based on historical data of actual performance. If, for example, you've got a 10-year average of 72% of (pick a group) achieving grade level, then you can be pretty sure that just because you raise your expectations, that the percentage will magically increase. So if you say, "if you (student) achieve a rate that is at the average of your demographic, we'll consider that to be "OK." Not wonderful, but OK. Then, within that demographic, you'll still have some individuals that exceed brilliantly, and some who flush.

[Tertius]

It is one thing to group segments of a body of students to target areas of improvement. It is quite another to announce different goals by race. I can remember such would bring fire and brimstone down on an organization.

[Howard Gap]

Sounds racist to me. You are telling the Blacks and the rest of the world that Blacks are not as smart as others and need special rules in order to succeed.

[Wneglia]

Sounds racist to me. You are telling the Blacks and the rest of the world that Blacks are not as smart as others and need special rules in order to succeed.

Affirmative action?

[Colonel Taylor]

Boy if this isn't sad. Why on earth would they do such a thing? Makes no sense since the rest of the world still goes around. What will they do when they get to College or Trade School?

[O Really]

Pay attention. Nobody is saying that any individual within a demographic group CAN'T learn. Nobody is saying that a demographic group as a whole can't improve over time. But if a person is in a demographic that has under performed in the past, they won't be measured against someone in a different demographic that has performed better. Again, I'm not defending the program, just saying it has some rationality and isn't ridiculous on its face.

[Tertius]

Pay attention. Nobody is saying that any individual within a demographic group CAN'T learn. Nobody is saying that a demographic group as a whole can't improve over time. But if a person is in a demographic that has under performed in the past, they won't be measured against someone in a different demographic that has performed better. Again, I'm not defending the program, just saying it has some rationality and isn't ridiculous on its face.

The question is 50 years after that demographic was integrated, with no language barrier, why do they still trail. If the problem is not race then what. I think it is affirmative action and parenting.

[Stinger]

Pay attention. Nobody is saying that any individual within a demographic group CAN'T learn. Nobody is saying that a demographic group as a whole can't improve over time. But if a person is in a demographic that has under performed in the past, they won't be measured against someone in a different demographic that has performed better. Again, I'm not defending the program, just saying it has some rationality and isn't ridiculous on its face.

The question is 50 years after that demographic was integrated, with no language barrier, why do they still trail. If the problem is not race then what. I think it is affirmative action and parenting.

Try poverty and education level of the parents. Those are the two factors that correlate with student achievement, high or low.

You messed up. You forgot to blame the teachers and the teachers' unions. That's page 1 of the Con manual.

[lessthantolerant]

But raising self esteem?

This is so wrong on so many fronts.

[Tertius]

Pay attention. Nobody is saying that any individual within a demographic group CAN'T learn. Nobody is saying that a demographic group as a whole can't improve over time. But if a person is in a demographic that has under performed in the past, they won't be measured against someone in a different demographic that has performed better. Again, I'm not defending the program, just saying it has some rationality and isn't ridiculous on its face.

The question is 50 years after that demographic was integrated, with no language barrier, why do they still trail. If the problem is not race then what. I think it is affirmative action and parenting.

Try poverty and education level of the parents. Those are the two factors that correlate with student achievement, high or low.

You messed up. You forgot to blame the teachers and the teachers' unions. That's page 1 of the Con manual.

You have never seen me blame teachers. After 50 years black parents have had the same education opportunities as white parents. The same can be said for poverty. Students today are the third generation. Black poor performance cannot be blamed on income or parental or grand parent education both had the same opportunities as the general population.

[O Really]

After 50 years black parents have had the same education opportunities as white parents. The same can be said for poverty. Students today are the third generation. Black poor performance cannot be blamed on income or parental or grand parent education both had the same opportunities as the general population.

In a broad sense, yes, but from a practical standpoint, they do not. If you grow up in a family that does not value education, you probably won't either, unless something happens to change your direction. If most everyone in your neighborhood does not value education, your chances get worse. If - opportunities aside - most everybody in your family and your community is uneducated, your chances of rising above it are small - although it can and has been done. Again, I don't personally think this is a good approach, but it's more on a track of customizing the education experience to the students you have than blatent racism. In education, much like most everything else, one size fits nobody.

[Tertius]

After 50 years black parents have had the same education opportunities as white parents. The same can be said for poverty. Students today are the third generation. Black poor performance cannot be blamed on income or parental or grand parent education both had the same opportunities as the general population.

In a broad sense, yes, but from a practical standpoint, they do not. If you grow up in a family that does not value education, you probably won't either, unless something happens to change your direction. If most everyone in your neighborhood does not value education, your chances get worse. If - opportunities aside - most everybody in your family and your community is uneducated, your chances of rising above it are small - although it can and has been done. Again, I don't personally think this is a good approach, but it's more on a track of customizing the education experience to the students you have than blatent racism. In education, much like most everything else, one size fits nobody.

And this is justification for difference standards? It seems placing different standards in school only reinforces the issues you cite. Also today and for some time such neighborhoods have been integrated. If your causes were the root causes then the populations should be homogenized into one standard by now.

[Wneglia]

After 50 years black parents have had the same education opportunities as white parents. The same can be said for poverty. Students today are the third generation. Black poor performance cannot be blamed on income or parental or grand parent education both had the same opportunities as the general population.

In a broad sense, yes, but from a practical standpoint, they do not. If you grow up in a family that does not value education, you probably won't either, unless something happens to change your direction. If most everyone in your neighborhood does not value education, your chances get worse. If - opportunities aside - most everybody in your family and your community is uneducated, your chances of rising above it are small - although it can and has been done. Again, I don't personally think this is a good approach, but it's more on a track of customizing the education experience to the students you have than blatent racism. In education, much like most everything else, one size fits nobody.

And this is justification for difference standards? It seems placing different standards in school only reinforces the issues you cite. Also today and for some time such neighborhoods have been integrated. If your causes were the root causes then the populations should be homogenized into one standard by now.

It is interesting that many educators feel the racial education achievement gap is partly due to lower expectations of teachers for minorities, and self fulfillment of such.

[lessthantolerant]

Pay attention. Nobody is saying that any individual within a demographic group CAN'T learn. Nobody is saying that a demographic group as a whole can't improve over time. But if a person is in a demographic that has under performed in the past, they won't be measured against someone in a different demographic that has performed better. Again, I'm not defending the program, just saying it has some rationality and isn't ridiculous on its face.

So you are saying to have special rules for each induvidual group! This is the same as saying blacks are stupier than whites. Is this another way for iberals to justify their racist views?

[Stinger]

You have never seen me blame teachers.

Then you're not following the right-wing playbook. I think it was Foolgle who blamed the teachers and unions for everything going back to Eve in the Garden of Eden. That one was Obama's fault.

After 50 years black parents have had the same education opportunities as white parents.

And you figure that 50 years just automatically overcomes centuries of oppression, exclusion, and forced illiteracy? Do tell.

The same can be said for poverty.

What? Black parents have had the same poverty opportunities as white parents?

Students today are the third generation.

Do you mean "Black students today are the third generation to have access to equal education"?

Have you ever heard of a handicap race? Do you have any idea where blacks were, both poverty-wise and education-wise?

Black poor performance cannot be blamed on income or parental or grand parent education both had the same opportunities as the general population.

Thanks for revealing your complete ignorance on the subject. I suspected it, but you just confirmed it.

The single greatest predictor of a child's academic success is the education level of the parent. Right behind that is the economic affluence (or lack of it) of the parents. That's shown by study after study after study after study, and has been shown to be so for years.

But I'm not surprised you didn't know that.

Not only that, but the difference in test scores between the poor and affluent has grown 40% since the 1960's, and is now twice the size of the gap between black students and white students. LINK

There's proof that affluence is a greater factor in education than is race, . . . but I don't expect you to bother to understand that or to let the facts interfere with your beliefs. You've invested too much in your ideology to go changing it based on reality.[/color][/b]

[Stinger]

It is interesting that many educators feel the racial education achievement gap is partly due to lower expectations of teachers for minorities, and self fulfillment of such.

Do you have a credible source for that?

[Wneglia]

It is interesting that many educators feel the racial education achievement gap is partly due to lower expectations of teachers for minorities, and self fulfillment of such.

Do you have a credible source for that?

Here's the source.
You decide whether it is credible.